[Guest]

Our brains emit electric pulses. We have complicated machines to read these pulses. I believe that when we die, the pulses from our brain reach a frequency that our complicated machines can't read. I believe this frequency matches the earth's magnetic field. In a sense, we meld with the earth. Our minds are at a higher state of awareness than normal, so it is like an everlasting shared lucid dream. This would explain many near death experiences. People in comas often report seeing heaven. This "heaven" is in my opinion, what they expect to see, and therefore, what they do see.

What do you believe?

Edited July 5, 2010 by Blablah99

[Izzy]

Haven't we done this one before? During death, DMT is secreted by your pancreas, explaining the visuals. We know this because DMT has been synthesized out side of the body and used as a recreational drug, and it is described to be very trippy indeed, trip reports reports indistinguishable from near death experience recollections.

When you die, you die. You're officially as non-living as the Earth which you will join (unless you want to be blasted off into space haha). Brain activity stops. Zilch is going on.

[Guest]

I have not seen this topic.

[Guest]

I'm talking about beliefs. Not what physically happens.

[unreality]

I'm with Izzy. Sure we'd all like "merge with the universe", "become one with God in a luxurious no-problematic perfectly pure-and-peaceful happy-go-lucky Heaven" but it's all just wishful thinking with no way of actually knowing. We simply cannot know. I repeat: WE CANNOT KNOW. It is on par with Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle or Godel's Incompleteness Theorem. There is no way anyone alive can know what comes after death, only speculate/wish/hope/deceive/write about it. The only other way is that some entity on one higher level that has knowledge of this somehow were to inform someone, but again, the incompleteness theorems - however they choose to inform the person in our universe on our planet, it will be manifested in motion of atoms and chemistry, stimulating either their sensation or perception. So this "unveiling of the truth" would occur one level down from the level on which it was conceived and thus could not be portrayed in the language of this universe anyway. And, more importantly, nor could the person be sure that this particular bit of brain chemistry or external change could have come about naturally or by some higher-level being trying, of all things, to transmit to this particular human being the events of an afterlife.

In other words, it's fundamentally impossible to KNOW what happens after death, even if there are intelligent beings one level up, so to speak. You can think you know, but you CANNOT. You absolutely cannot.

That being said, I'm with izzy. All evidence points to us just dying when we die. Zip. Zilch. Of course that's not "for sure" but it seems to be that way. I wouldn't even want it to be different. The limited span of life makes life much more precious.

[Guest]

I know it is impossible to KNOW what happens, but I would like to hear what people THINK happens.

[unreality]

I know it is impossible to KNOW what happens, but I would like to hear what people THINK happens.

no you asked what people BELIEVE, which is on par with KNOW except it's a more dangerous concept because people who think they believe something hold it close and refuse additional input on the matter unless it bolsters their 'belief'.

You want to know what I believe? I believe nothing happens when we die. Or to put it better, i don't believe anything happens. I think we just go out like a light, as what I and Izzy said above. That's what our experiences in this world (the only world we know to be real) have told us.

edit typo

Edited July 5, 2010 by unreality

[EDM]

As far as I can tell, we go to heaven........

Many people have had the 'out of body' experiences, which are very accurate.........People who have 'seen' heaven all have very similar descriptions.......One guy has even seen hell!!!! (trust me, this guy was really shook up...... )

I don't think that you 'just die'......it's impossible to turn into nothingness; it doesn't seem to make any sense.....

Anyway......taking beliefs aside; if i had to choose my fate after death, i'd probably want to turn into a star or a constellation.......it just seems interesting to me.....

yes unreality, it is impossible to know what happens to each person after death; i won't deny it.......but i'll have to disagree with you and Izzy and say that we don't just die......it sounds too boring. What's the point of having a life and mourning for people if you're going to disappear off the face of the earth?

So my conclusion: Heaven is the place and we have an afterlife........ :D

[Izzy]

Blah, I DID post what I think happens. You'll notice a lot of my "beliefs" agree with the empirical evidence placed before me, for reasons I shouldn't have to explain. I'm sorry if it wasn't happy enough for you, haha. Did you want me to post what I WANT to happen? ..Because I'll explain that.. below. Haha.

yes unreality, it is impossible to know what happens to each person after death; i won't deny it.......but i'll have to disagree with you and Izzy and say that we don't just die......it sounds too boring. What's the point of having a life and mourning for people if you're going to disappear off the face of the earth?

Hmm. ..I suspect this will be a tad depressing, but it isn't really!

I'm sorry, but there is no point, no overall purpose, no divine meaning. Your "points" are whatever you want them to be, whilst you live, completely forgotten by yourself when you die, and eventually forgotten by everyone when we slowly die off, planets get consumed, star systems end, and so forth. ...But the fact that life ends when you die gives your life so much more meaning. Humans have an inherent instinct to survive, so it's natural we want to extend our lives infinitely. If this happens, what's the point? After the first 856890854852048234532593480 years of living as a god-worshipping zombie in heaven, wouldn't it get boring? Wouldn't you WANT it to end? I'm so happy I won't live forever, because that means what I do now is special. You're simply reverting from an infinite period of nonexistence, to an infinitesimal period of existence, back to an infinite period of nonexistence. If you want to think about that in "happier" terms, you're converting back into energy and exploring the universe.

It also means you can't f**k up in life, because you won't remember it. So, DO WHAT YOU WANT AND HAVE FUN. Success is how you define it. I'm being successful by being happy.

Edited July 5, 2010 by Izzy

[unreality]

As far as I can tell, we go to heaven........

Many people have had the 'out of body' experiences, which are very accurate.........People who have 'seen' heaven all have very similar descriptions.......One guy has even seen hell!!!! (trust me, this guy was really shook up...... )

dreams and out-of-body experiences have been linked to a potent chemical called dimethyltryptamine, or DMT, a compound present in every living thing (or at least most living things). It's known as the "spirit molecule" by many and is possible to synthesize from plants. It is one of the most powerful and profound hallucinogens in existence.

I don't think that you 'just die'......it's impossible to turn into nothingness; it doesn't seem to make any sense.....

why not? I never said you "turn into nothingness". Matter and energy are conserved - you see what happens to a body after it dies. Brain activity dies. And certain structures of the brain control things like emotions and personality traits and whatnot - so if you do have a soul, the intelligence it represents would not be much like the way your mind thinks now. Your brain is unique and does the thinking. You are your brain.

Anyway......taking beliefs aside; if i had to choose my fate after death, i'd probably want to turn into a star or a constellation.......it just seems interesting to me.....

would you though? It might be interesting at first. Do you really want to live forever?

yes unreality, it is impossible to know what happens to each person after death; i won't deny it.......but i'll have to disagree with you and Izzy and say that we don't just die......it sounds too boring.

You know what I don't think pregnant ladies stay pregnant for a whole 9 months. It sounds too boring.

You know what, I don't think lightning strikes. It sounds too boring.

You know what, I think 1+1=2 is boring. instead I think 1+3=4.

What's the point of having a life and mourning for people if you're going to disappear off the face of the earth?

there is no point. The sooner you realize that the sooner you can let go of superstitions and wishful thinking and truly appreciate your life and the lives of those you love

[EDM]

Humans have an inherent instinct to survive, so it's natural we want to extend our lives infinitely. If this happens, what's the point? After the first 856890854852048234532593480 years of living as a god-worshipping zombie in heaven, wouldn't it get boring? Wouldn't you WANT it to end? I'm so happy I won't live forever, because that means what I do now is special.

Izzy....the zombie comment was hurtful (and insulting)

We don't end up as zombies; i don't get your thoughts on that, but in heaven, we live in peace.........we wouldn't want it to end: the whole 'body-and-soul' thing comes into the picture here......yes, it's special now to live life (it always is ), but that doesn't mean that we won't have anything to look forward to after earthly death......

[Izzy]

Haha, sorry, that's not what I meant by zombie. A zombie is one who comes back to life after death, so by definitive, you sort of are..

*shrug* If you can show me one iota of evidence that there's life after death, I might change my mind, but until then, I'm going to back Unreality and say it's just wishful thinking.

[EDM]

That's ok....

I have never experienced life after death (of course not!) but there are people (not me) who are able to give what they find as evidence that there is life after death......

hey.....did you know that there are people who believe in reincarnation? That's pretty cool.......

According to those people, a human, according to their personality, gets reincarnated into another form (say a bird, bear, wolf, or even another human)

There are people who have proof of reincarnation, that much I know...... Like the story of the WWII pilot who came back as a family person or something like that......he could remember stuff from his past life, which were all found to be true by scientific evidence....

Now if that can happen, why not life after death in heaven? :D

Edited July 5, 2010 by EDM

[unreality]

did you not see or more importantly No amount of pseudo-scientific "evidence" can prove or show anything about a life after death.

[Guest]

For me, considering this question raises two further questions:

1. What happened before birth?

2. How do you define life (what attributes does life have)?

I believe, or view my pre-birth status as one of an essentially miraculous convergence of Ancestral influences. These include DNA, the culture into which I was born, the laws of physics that govern my being, etc. It takes a lot to set a life in motion - lots more than most of us usually consider. Hell, it takes almost as much to manifest a stupid rock. There's where I jump off into questioning how well we really understand the most essential attributes of life.

Anyhow ... Death means becoming an Ancestor. For me, that's the most important part of it. I join the Ancestral influences that continue to propogate through the universe. Since I was largely formed by the Ancestors, I'm comfortable joining them. This is my vision of eternal life.

[Guest]

I believe that when we die, our soul...our spirit...the immortal facet of our being, is separated from the physical body that is dead and decaying. The body does biodegrade, but the spirit goes on into the after life. It isn't reincarnation. You are simply moving on to heaven or hell, and which one is decided by our lives here on Earth.

And heaven isn't filled by "zombies", like EDM said. Our spirit that is living in heaven never really died in the first place, so you can't really call it that. We are immersed in the glory of God so that we can't help but worship Him, no matter how long. (btw, I don't think the only thing we do in heaven is dance around the Throne and worship.)

and, unreality, what would you take as evidence? would you accept a testimony from a once dead Christian man, or do you want physical evidence from heaven itself (which, btw, isn't really possible since heaven is a spiritual realm)?

[unreality]

L Jayden, my position is stronger than 'what I would take as evidence'. Reread my first post. I hold that it is IMPOSSIBLE to know what comes after. Fundamentally. At a basic level. No matter what you think you've seen or heard or read about or heard about, it's all atoms within this universe and cannot speak for anything external to it. It's a fundamental limitation. We cannot know.

[Guest]

yes, i see what you're saying. what i was thinking was that if i died and was shown heaven before getting raised back to life, i would have no doubt about what would come after.

[unreality]

yes, i see what you're saying. what i was thinking was that if i died and was shown heaven before getting raised back to life, i would have no doubt about what would come after.

I agree with that too. The problem is that this state of "no doubt" is probably misleading. Have you heard of DMT?

Edited July 6, 2010 by unreality

[Izzy]

and, unreality, what would you take as evidence? would you accept a testimony from a once dead Christian man, or do you want physical evidence from heaven itself (which, btw, isn't really possible since heaven is a spiritual realm)?

You and EDM are both ignoring my and unreality's posts. The attestations of people's post-death experiences are because DMT, the most powerful visual psychedelic currently known, is secreted by the pancreas upon death. There is an overwhelming amount of evidence for this, and you are both perfectly capable of googling medical journals or reading books. In an ideal world, I'd tell you to smoke some and see for yourself, but apparently substances found in our own bodies are illegal, lmao. (It's also incredibly powerful, and people with little to know drug history probably couldn't be able to handle it.) I haven't really read through any of these, but here you can find hundreds of trip reports. Some of them are entirely on par with that people say they experience when they start to die. DMT trips generally have an onset of the "white light". People's pre-conceptions greatly influence the way a drug acts on their mind, which is why the less you know about the psychedelic effects, the trippier they'll tend to be because you're really "freeing" your mind.

So.. uh. No, testimonies won't work, because they can be explained scientifically, and show that you aren't transcending your body and entering heaven. I totally get the soul thing, but.. that's also BS. It's hard to take anything I can recreate with drugs seriously. It simply shows how easily our minds are fooled.

[Guest]

just clarify something for me, you're dead: your heart has stopped and your brain is inactive, dead. so how can you remember hallucinations caused by a drug if your brain is inactive and not recording anything? i understand when you say "start to die" but what about afterwords...what am i missing there?

[unreality]

just clarify something for me, you're dead: your heart has stopped and your brain is inactive, dead. so how can you remember hallucinations caused by a drug if your brain is inactive and not recording anything? i understand when you say "start to die" but what about afterwords...what am i missing there?

that point is invalid because obviously you "remembered" something, you "recorded" something if you ended up with a memory somehow. I can't help you further on the science of it, try Google

[Izzy]

Because your body doesn't "stop" when you die right away. That's why your fingernails and hair still grow for like two weeks after death. I'm not neuroscientist, but if I had to hazard a guess, it's because the chemicals in your brain responsible for recording memories don't "die" right away, just like the proteins in your fingers responsible for growing nails. When you come back to life, your brain can understand the chemicals again and you'll remember.

[unreality]

but from what i've heard of NDEs as compared to living DMT trips, it does seem like the memory in the case of the NDE is much worse and the experience is more fragmented or vague or hard to grasp/accomodate. Hence just the vague notions of seeing heaven or whatnot.

[Guest]

Your fingernails and hair don't keep growing. Your skin contracts revealing more hair and fingernails.

[Guest]

personal philosophy on what comes after:

I'll find out when I die. no hurry.