[Guest]

I looked around btu didtn see a president for this kind of topic so I made a poll. It's pubic so we can see who said what. I just wanted to start by saying I love my country very much. Between my grandfather and my uncles, my family has weathered three wars with the enemies of justice and democracy. I'm proud of what they've done, but this topic isn't about our armed forces it's about what they're protecting from terrorism and atheism and communism and all that stuff - America.

I know this is a forum for smart people, people with traditional, correct values and good families, so I don't know how many infidels we can draw out of hiding, but I imagine it'll be like goose hunting in my grandpa's property - we'll have to be still maybe to tender up those liberals and get them feeling okay to talk. So what do you say?

[Guest]

No dude, straight from the Constitution, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ." It doesn't matter where the actual phrase "Separation of Church and State" (I prefer the

) was derived because that's the expression used to abridge that statement. This means that, so long as we're in a democracy, keep your religion private and out of the government. Yes, this is freedom of religion in the sense that you cannot manhandle your religion down the throats of American citizens by making the Ten Commandments law based merely on the fact that they've come down from some "divine ruler". ("Not killing" is a bit different, because while it is also in the commandments, killing violates your inherent right to live, which is protected under the constitution.)

True, the founding fathers wanted America to be a place where anyone could come in from any religion and race, etc. this is where we disagree: the government is to be kept out of religion, not vice versa. the posting of Ten Commandments is expressing belief in Jesus Christ and God's laws, which we should be free to do (and we're not). my goal isn't to shove my "religion" down your throat as so many people have done, i admit. i'm out to try and prove to some people that the goal of Christians isn't to tyrannize the world (which GUSAC has ruined), but to show people the acceptance, forgiveness, salvation, etc.: basically, the love of God. once a person has encountered His love, everything else follows

[peace*out]

SO MUCH WRONG HERE!

1) Why isn't there an option for not loving the USA? And whether you didn't find it. No disscussion topics are limited to only a certain type of people - thats what PMs are for.

I just wanted to start by saying I love my country very much. Between my grandfather and my uncles, my family has weathered three wars with the enemies of justice and democracy. I'm proud of what they've done, but this topic isn't about our armed forces it's about what they're protecting from terrorism and atheism and communism and all that stuff - America.

1). Both my grandfathers fought in world war II. My grade just interveiwed veterans and "publsihed" (kinda) a book. I have it. my classmates have it. the historical society has it. The library has it. I learned a lot. My neighbors a vetearan and was interveiwed. I still don't know about "loving" the usa - i do love the waterparks here but overall, there's a LOT to change - for me.

2). I'm an athiest. So just...dont say that again. If there's a god, than that's ok, cause i guess he loves everyone. And if there isn't thats ok too - we've agreed to have peaceful disscussions here about stuff like that without flipping at each other. DX this...has just offended me. As in - i never[/] get mad. I was so crazy hapy till about *looks at clock* 30 secs ago. not so much anymore...

I know this is a forum for smart people, people with traditional, correct values and good families, so I don't know how many infidels we can draw out of hiding, but I imagine it'll be like goose hunting in my grandpa's property - we'll have to be still maybe to tender up those liberals and get them feeling okay to talk. So what do you say?

1). Yes it is! this includes athiests. My family is amazing. We contribute to society, run community gardens, donate to the food pantry, do community service and help people in other countrys. My parents are Christian, however, its not the religion they believe in as much as what Jesus taught - love your neighbor and be kind. And I'm an athiest. Correct values? I'm an honors student, just go into one of the top boarding schools in this *lovely* country, America. Hard to get into...and i help my family with all the above if you want values.

2). Infindel? WTF?

DEFINITION: in·fi·del (nf-dl, -dl) n.

1. Offensive An unbeliever with respect to a particular religion, especially Christianity or Islam.

2. One who has no religious beliefs.

3. One who doubts or rejects a particular doctrine, system, or principle.

^^I assume you mean #1. And I'm not a goose to be hunted. You want values? You dont seem to be having any internet ones right now. I'm not gonna be "tender." So what do I say? I say stfu.

Thank you

Wow. Are you a troll? Cocky and arrogant much? ...

^^Thankyou.

I see that this is going to be more interesting than I at first thought. Dawh you sound like a smart male. I hope that after sufficient conversation I'll have opened your mind a bit. As for Izzy, could you please remove your signature? I find it highly offensive. Science is interesting, yes, but only as a sidenote, a plaything to keep people occupied and give women a sense of accomplishment for doing something that doesn't involve cooking and sex. If you believe in Micro Evolution then you know that it's no coincidence men and women are designed to go together and make babies; let's not gloss over the facts. Anyway, swear words also are offensive. It doesn't matter if you bleep it down to f**k, everyone still knows what it is. And on top of that, Dawkins I believe is referring to Richard Dawkins, notable atheist writer. Ha! Oxymoron

edit: it looks like you are supporting drug use in your signature as well. Is that some kind of a joke?

Yes it shall! Dawh is a smart male. And Izzy's a smart Female. I'm a smart female. And I notice how izzys a female (so shes not smart?) and dawhs a male (but he is smart - though im sure he is), but...wow. Opened the mind to WHAT? Blindly following leaders with no thought off what we;re doing wrong? Fighting against nuclear weapons that dont exist? I love democracy, but this isn't the true idea of it. And Izzys sig rocks - just making sure you know that... JW: why do you find it offensive? I'm asking you honestly. Not trying to bend your answer back at you (unless you have none and are just saying that cause you disagree with her). Science is amazing. Without it - you wouldnt be on whatever comp your on right now. You would be....NOWHERE. "...and give women a sense of accomplishment for doing something that doesn't involve cooking and sex." <-- Um...wow. I'm guessing you dont have a wife...some stats on me: 14 yr old female, in G&T, loves math, ok at sci (80 :/) Cant cook at all (I burn chicken nuggets! ), and I think this is the most amazingly stupidest meanest thing you've said yet. Dude - what happened to equality? "...If you believe in Micro Evolution then you know that it's no coincidence men and women are designed to go together and make babies;" <-- guys and girls reproduce. But guys and guys are just as fine as girl/girl as male/female. We're all people. and the facts? we can all be nice to one another and love one another. If you think swear words are offensive, I'm sorry. But at the den, we express our selves, and if we need to use a swear to make a point, then thats fine. Just letting you know. And yes we know what it is - isn't that the point so you know what we're saying? "...notable atheist writer. Ha! Oxymoron" Oxymoron. *flipps out big time* not an oxymoron. not even close. One of the truest things is that someone who believes different from you can be good. There can be a notable Muslim or Christian or Jewish writer - go them! yay for writing.

:0 Yo. Bro. No.

yay. 'nuff said.

unfortunately most scientists are still males, however women are breaching the field and in the past 10 years the number of women scientists has risen dramatically

(1) just cooking and sex? are you saying men do laundry? Is there a root for your rampant sexism and disrespect of over 1/2 the world's population?

(2) do you have any idea what micro evolution means?

thankyou SO MUCH. That's what im trying to say, but this is much kinder.

OKAY FIRST OF ALL I THINK STARNSSTRIPES IS ONEHUNDRED PROCENT RITE.

great. awesome! I like your paragraph till after this period right about here. ^^ Can you explain your choice? Add some input? Thats awesome! That's what we want to see: opinion, and fighting for it with reasons and beliefs. YAY!

[peace*out]

Atheists and liberals and communists and all those other UNPATRIOTIC AMERICA HATERS are DOOMING our country.

dont like it so much anymore. Read above. I'm an athiest and proud of it. Dooming? We're helping this country. Read above...not repeating my rant again.

WE are the best in the world, and because all these other stupid countries exist (Iraq, Ahghanistan, China, etc.) we are wasting OUR money and OUR efforts in communicating with and fighitng the enemy.

no. everyones equal. If tehre was a baby born 15 secs ago, then they are equal to you or me. A life's a life. And can you say racist? You are right about one thing: we ARE WASTING OUR MONEY fighting. I understand making sure we're safe, but we shouldn't go into everyone world war we see, and go even farther into debt.

JESUS WAS WHITE, so ALL YOU OTHER PEOPLE NEED TO GO AWAY, BECAUSE this is OUR country.

Jesus wasn't from america. He had dark colored skin. No big deal. And everyone was an imigint at one point - even your ancestors. My great great...add a few "great" grandparents came from ireland. I'm 8% irish. Its cool...Its something else unique about me. I acually may leave this country when im older. I visit places around the world and those are cool. I may live in africa for a bit sometime - that could be fun. Enjoy life- its about being nice and making others happy - not unwanted.

The mexicans and blacks and orientals and stuff, ARE HERE TO WORK FOR US.

Wow - since when? They're here to get a job and be able to have their opnion heard.

God made us in HIS image, the other people just came because bad people had sex with monkeys. (Dont believe me? Then why do blasck people look like monkeys.)

This is, of course, if you believe cristianity. If teh stories are true, I would like to think that eve was a hispanic woman, and Adam...He was either darker or lighter...i can't decide. In "His image" means the shape of a human. Plus: we dont know this for sure...He could look like a leopard and they got it wrong. I have no idea.

PLUS, all the other countries are dumb. WHy else dont they speak English? and Great Britian is wrong because they worship their queen and not OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST.

No they aren't. South africa is amazing. Barcelona - so many great memorites from there. I go to Canada every year and LOVE IT! So nice! And why dont we all speak spanish? Is that the top language int eh world or is it chinese. I dont think english is. It's because our heritage and where we come from make us who we are. Dont' ruin it. And They praise their queen. She ruels them like the president rules us. No problem here. And not everyone believes in chrisianity remember.

As you can see, i have just conclusively proved why THE USA IS NUMBER ONE, so people like Izzy and Dawh need to leave the country because they're tratiors.

How? Oh - add Peace to that list! *Becomes a spy* Out...Peace Out... No, I'm not a traitor. If i knew who you were i would smack you so hard right now...I'm guessing you dont have a wife either.

[peace*out]

Or, if they dont live IN THE BEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, they need to stay far away because we dont need people that oppose us because that will lead to harm for them.

Again - matter of opinion. And this...this is terrorism. Rigth here. The harm for them part.

also, if we're not the best, why do the mexiocans keep illegally coming here?

Cause they think that we can give them jobs and freedome...

Quick Q: Ever see "Thankyou for Smoking"? Its a movie. Watch teh seen about debating, and the kids paper...the carnival seen too. Those are good points.

GOD BLESS ALL OF YOU WHO AGREE WITH ME, and the others, may God have mercy on your soul.

Jacob

God bless everyone, agreing and not agreeing. Thanks!

first of all I don't want to be associated with GOD&USA&CHRIST.

Glad to hear that!

Although I'm sure he's going to heaven to be with my grandpa and uncles, I disagree that Jesus was white.

how is terrorizing people making you go to heaven. Its nto like if you say, "I like christ and the usa" that you automaticly get there is there is a heaven.

I read an article thingy that said Jesus was actually black and for that I wish I was black so I can be closer to Him. There's no need for racism in a place like this with smart people who know that race is just genetics

Yes! isn't that awesome! Most people beleive that he takes after themselves. But he was born in the middle east, right?

(1) t was an expression jeez (or should I say Jes). The root for my "sexism" (more like realism) is explained in this article: http://www.conservapedia.com/Feminism <- old feminists used to be happy in their place, but now there's a bunch of women that want to be like men for 'equality'. There's such a thing as being "equal" in a different way

its not "sexism." Its sexism. And we should be equal. And how is equal bad? I'm asking (again) an honest question here.

(2) let's not get into this. I respect (sort of) those who believe in Evolutionism and Darwinism. I know in my heart that God is the only God and Jesus is His son, but I still acknowledge that other religions exist where maybe Christians haven't been good enough yet in spreading the Word. Evolutionism is just another viewpoint and like George Bush, the jury is still out

sort of? I respect them. I respect those who dont. what does "sort of" mean? Good. acnoladge other religions. Its not where Christains havn't been spreading the word. Its where they choose to beleive something different from other people. Good for them.

[Guest]

I have to come back to this topic.

gotta say, that the fag flying your doing is very much what the terroisits are doing too -so your no better in that respect.

you may want to check the word infidel and it's origin - then look in the mirror

And good luck changing color

Get over yourself SnS and grow up fast - its one planet one nation, one natural world. Lets share it!

got that off my chest - will read through others comments later

[rookie1ja]

Moderating

I advise to stick to the forum rules:

5. Basic etiquette - no insulting, disrespectful posts, flame wars, inappropriate words, multiple identities (user names) without admin's approval etc. Otherwise account might be deleted without notice. Basically - don’t be a jerk.

Any further offensive approach against other members might result in suspending your membership on this site.

Thanks.

[Guest]

True, the founding fathers wanted America to be a place where anyone could come in from any religion and race, etc. this is where we disagree: the government is to be kept out of religion, not vice versa. the posting of Ten Commandments is expressing belief in Jesus Christ and God's laws, which we should be free to do (and we're not). my goal isn't to shove my "religion" down your throat as so many people have done, i admit. i'm out to try and prove to some people that the goal of Christians isn't to tyrannize the world (which GUSAC has ruined), but to show people the acceptance, forgiveness, salvation, etc.: basically, the love of God. once a person has encountered His love, everything else follows

So would you be comfortable in a court decorated with a Menorah and would you be happy if you were required to be sworn in on the Qur'an? There are Jewish and Muslim judges in this country, so if they are free to practice their religion in the court of law, then they should be able to do things like that if Christian judges want to put the Ten Commandments in the courthouse.

But putting the Ten Commandments in the courthouse serves no useful purpose anyway. We know what they are and they could easily be put in writing in a small book if we really needed a copy. The people who want these edifices in their courthouse are simply proselytizing for Christianity in a court of law. There's no need for such monuments to exist (even if we were to accept that freedom of religion and freedom from religion were different things). These people only want these sorts of thing in the courthouse to satisfy their righteous vanity. If they abide by God's laws and adjudicate his will, why do they need a five-foot tall (or even a five-inch tall) monument of the stone tablets to help them? It's purely to stroke their own ego and does nothing to glorify God.

If you can explain how having these proposed monuments to the Ten Commandments improves the court's ability to function, then I'll happily accept them into the courthouse (along with any Menorahs, Buddha statues, Qur'ans, etc. that also meet those circumstances), but until then, I don't see them as helping the court interpret the law, so I don't think they have any business being put there.

[Guest]

I came to the conclusion that some people are not ready for an informed discussion,and tThis form of 'debate' is not the way I wish to conduct a conversation/argument or point of view. Maybe when I have some real time and find a way to not be offended with much of this content I can 'take part'. That would be on the basis of mutual intercourse and not 'arrogant opinion with a view to witch hunting and finger pointing.

All the worlds a stage...etc (W.S)

[Guest]

So would you be comfortable in a court decorated with a Menorah and would you be happy if you were required to be sworn in on the Qur'an? There are Jewish and Muslim judges in this country, so if they are free to practice their religion in the court of law, then they should be able to do things like that if Christian judges want to put the Ten Commandments in the courthouse.

I see your point, and no i wouldn't be comfortable, and i would refuse (for as long as possible, mind you)to do so, since my basis of life is the Bible. not that it would be good...but i don't see why they don't, and i hope they don't

But putting the Ten Commandments in the courthouse serves no useful purpose anyway. We know what they are and they could easily be put in writing in a small book if we really needed a copy. The people who want these edifices in their courthouse are simply proselytizing for Christianity in a court of law. There's no need for such monuments to exist (even if we were to accept that freedom of religion and freedom from religion were different things). These people only want these sorts of thing in the courthouse to satisfy their righteous vanity. If they abide by God's laws and adjudicate his will, why do they need a five-foot tall (or even a five-inch tall) monument of the stone tablets to help them? It's purely to stroke their own ego and does nothing to glorify God.

after seeing people like Jacob here on this thread, i'm guessing there are people out there in the world who have never heard of the Commandments. posting them up in public is putting a thought in people's heads, and letting God do what He wants with that thought. The person may reject it, or it may do something with them. i don't know God's plans with this country, especially the way it's going. but He does have a plan and in the end, the glory's all His. it's up to us to acknowledge it for ourselves, but He's still God no matter what. you can call it proselytizing, because that's pretty much what it is. if Muslims and others do the same, they're not breaking Constitutional law. still, Muslims and many others redefine the Bible, Jews don't accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah (even though Christ and Messiah mean the same thing...). that doesn't violate the laws of our country, but the laws of the Bible. at least to me as a Christian, that's just as bad

If you can explain how having these proposed monuments to the Ten Commandments improves the court's ability to function, then I'll happily accept them into the courthouse (along with any Menorahs, Buddha statues, Qur'ans, etc. that also meet those circumstances), but until then, I don't see them as helping the court interpret the law, so I don't think they have any business being put there.

The rules laid out by the Commandments are largely used today: i.e. murder, stealing, perjury; along other rules that simply make life smoother: honoring parents, not envying the people around you, etc etc.

the Commandments are the basis for most laws in the world (highlight most, since i realize that many laws are made that contradict the Bible) and they are put in the courthouse to remind people of it. the problem is, not very many see it that way...it's a statement, and is a reminder of where the idea of rules came from: God.

[akaslickster]

If one is proud of his/her country, that is fine. There is no reason to rub it into other peoples faces. True pride is kept sacred within ones own heart.

[abhisk]

^Thank you slick.

Ok just to let everyone know again, all Americanians aren’t as...different...as some of the others that have posted here. You guys know who I’m talking about.

I’m leaving now, and I don’t want to see this thread again.

[Guest]

I see your point, and no i wouldn't be comfortable, and i would refuse (for as long as possible, mind you)to do so, since my basis of life is the Bible. not that it would be good...but i don't see why they don't, and i hope they don't

But if the judge forced you to be sworn in on the Qur'an, wouldn't you feel that your freedom of religion was be oppressed by a representative of the government? Not all religions (and not nearly most laws) are based on the the Ten Commandments. There are myriads of topics not covered by the TC and they don't require big stone tablets to get the message across in any case. By saying that we have freedom from religion, we're not changing what the First Amendment says, we're just altering the phrasing to better represent what should be a reasonable interpretation of the statement. You don't want a Muslim judge telling you to follow Islamic customs in a law court; I don't want a Christian judge telling me how to behave in a law court (the same goes for Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, etc. judges). Since we have freedom of religion, the government should not be telling us what religion to follow in any official government capacity. That includes inside the courthouse. The judge is free to be a Christian or a Muslim at home, or in Church/Mosque, but in his capacity as judge representing this government, he should adjudicate without religious influence so that the rights of citizens like you and me don't get trampled upon.

The rules laid out by the Commandments are largely used today: i.e. murder, stealing, perjury; along other rules that simply make life smoother: honoring parents, not envying the people around you, etc etc.

the Commandments are the basis for most laws in the world (highlight most, since i realize that many laws are made that contradict the Bible) and they are put in the courthouse to remind people of it. the problem is, not very many see it that way...it's a statement, and is a reminder of where the idea of rules came from: God.

Well, other than the first three regarding honoring God, most of the rest are fairly commonsense issues that are required for civilization to exist, regardless of the source. These are problems that occur in large societies and if they hadn't been handed down by God (at least according to the Bible), someone would have had to create them anyway. The oldest written laws were Babylonian laws that predate the TC, Hammurabi's Code. HC covered a lot of the issues that we still face today, but I don't think that many people say that we derive our laws from them (in part because they had some very harsh punishments; the first instance of "an eye for an eye"). Just because two things have the same rules doesn't mean that they necessarily have the same source.

The TC are not and were never the basis for most laws in the world. That's part of the problem of the lack of perspective we have as Americans. Here, Christianity is a way of life for most people and it's easy to assume that the rest of the world is the same way. Most of Asia is not Christian and had never even heard of Christianity for many centuries. During that time, before their "enlightenment" in the ways of all things Christian, they still had laws, but those laws derived from other sources, among them their religions like Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism, et al. None of these are connected to Christianity or Judaism, so those laws (and the laws that they still obey that derive from those laws) were not wrought from the Bible. So, we really can't say that the laws must have derived from the TC (or consequently God). If God had never given us the TC, do you think that we would not have laws against killing and stealing? We could not be here in America today without laws like that, so regardless of who wrote them, someone would have done it.

@Abhisk: I decided to just ignore what he (you know to whom I refer) said and focus on legitimate debate (like LJayden). Just because he tried to poison the well doesn't mean that we can't purify the water before we drink.

[Izzy]

Ljayden, this is something I wrote for our history discussion board subsequent to a Socratic seminar my class was having with insufficient time to finish. It relates, and dawh has been doing a wonderful job of explaining the unfairness to you, but I hope reading this will change your opinion somewhat.

--------

This is a reply to the second part of Alyssa's post, which I'm going to quote and then respond to. This isn't a personal attack and I, generally, am in no way antagonistic towards religions or their followers. This is simply a rationalization of the conjecture that religion is inherent and essential to a moral and well-functioning government.

"In the second seminar, the topic of religion was discussed heavily. I don’t remember if it was said on here, or during the actual seminar, or both for that matter, but someone said that religion should not be put into a government, and I have to disagree, though it is a valid idea. Without some type of religious values put into a government’s laws, the government cannot have a proper structure. All moral values are based on some belief, which usually is based on a religion, or lack thereof, and a government has to have some type of moral values, even in effective governments. We might not think that killing someone is always on a moral stand point based on a legal stand point, but the practice of not killing people, is based on a religious belief that we should not kill people."

Okay, so the assumptions here (which shall be debunked in a structural and inoffensive manner) .

1. Morals are based off of beliefs, specifically religions.

2. The government cannot function without religious input.

3. Our government will lack structure if our religions are nonexistent.

4. Not killing people is purely a religious concept.

1. Let's start with defining morality. We're going to keep it simple and say that it's just the principle of beliefs concerning the distinction between good and bad (right and wrong) behavior. We'll define good as things that help people and bad as things that hurt people, helping and hurting both physical and emotional concepts. There are different degrees of good and bad, as we got into in the Socratic Seminar, so I'll just assume everyone knows that almost everything is circumstantial as we've already spent a great deal of time discussing that. A belief is the acceptance of a statement, regardless of whether it's true or not. Beliefs don't require evidence, hence the term 'belief'. Religions are beliefs, nothing more.

Now, yes, religious texts include morals, but that doesn't mean morality was established from them. At some point, humans started developing a sense of right and wrong. I'm going to use the Bible as an example because that's what I'm somewhat familiar with. According to the Bible, all the moral stuff (Ten Commandments, etc.) in the Bible are there because of God's divine inspiration, and were NOT the ideals of man. (The same Bible that advocates stoning homosexuals, but that's another story entirely.) So, supposedly, we were all savages going around eating and killing each other until God sent himself, as his Son, named Jesus, whose also the father, so technically named Yahweh, but also some spirit thing (you with me? good ) to show us the way. Because all of these morals were purely God's concepts, according to the book that tells us he exists, we couldn't have known about them before he enlightened us.

Well.. history tells us otherwise. I forgot my book in my locker (>_>), so the info might be a *little* off.. but.. Uhh.. So, that thing about the nomadic people and how they evolved into the homo something, and eventually the homo erectus and stuff. Well, think about it. We started off as primitive tribes, and eventually evolved into ourselves today, a time span of over 3 million years. Now, BC = Before Christ, so all events that happened before a literal 2009 years ago involving humans would have to exclude any sort of a moral basis. We ALREADY know this to be untrue, because even before that, as our book tells us, social interactions among the early humans existed, where people who killed, stole, etc. were shunned from the tribe and left to die. I don't know exactly how it happened, but I can understand why. Way back when, helping each other was essential to one's own survival. There's no way you can hunt and raise a family by yourself, among other things, so people depended on each other. With this dependence came a sort of respect for one another, which led to rules that would keep people at peace with each other. Like, if you don't steal, you won't upset anybody, which is good for your own survival. What I'm trying to say is that morals are Darwinian instincts. Because our religious texts include them doesn't mean that's where they came from, and that doesn't mean that's why people follow them. Hell, there are many morals of religion which religious people neglect, so obviously there is another standard by which people choose their morals. Morality wouldn't disappear if religions did. Which is why, Ljayden, posting the ten commandments all over the place is pointless. People are already aware of them and already follow them to a degree. You're free to post them, of course. Are you familiar with the Atheist Bus Campaign? But when it comes to governmental places, religious entities can be deemed offensive. How would you feel if Obama was a Satanist and had a huge devil statue in the courthouse of the White House? Not happy, I assume.

2/3. The country was founded on a separation of church and state. Current theocracies lack structure notably more than countries with the church/state distinction. The Middle East, where the religion is the law, is a good example of this. What religious input does our government have that is actually religious? I've already, somewhat, proven that morality has nothing to do with religions, so the only other real effect they can have on people is how they spend their free time. There's absolutely no reason a government should instill a certain religion on to you, tell you when to pray, or any of that. None. It's not appropriate, it violates our constitutional rights, and it's just uncool. Do you want someone to tell you when to pray? No. Do you want someone to tell you who to marry? No. (Though most people think it's perfectly fine the government can tell you who NOT to marry, which isn't cool either. Marriage existed within tribes as a sign of partnership before religions did. )

4. Not killing people is an evolutionary trait of altruistic behavior, something ingrained in all of us to up our chances of reproductive success.

[Guest]

ok, i think peace is my new best friend. lol. im also an atheist. my moms family is jewish, my mom is buddhist, my dads family is christian, and my dad is catholic. i have close friends who are christian, jewish, and i dont even know what, some of them are very religious, and my best friend is catholic. and he has a friend whos a satanist! i have no problems with any of these people, and they have no problems with me. im not exactly sure where im going with this, but all i know is i dont think religion should define who you associate with, who youre friends with, or even who you spend your life with! my cousin is jewish, and shes married to a catholic. it doesnt matter. i realize that im not really posing a direct argument to anything, mainly because everything i couldve possibly said and more has been said by peace as well as others. i just wanted to put in my 2 cents worth about religion... ok, im done.

[Guest]

@izzy: to me, the human idea of morality came from the very first sin, when the woman ate fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. it wasn't God's original plan to have even the idea of morality in the world, He just wanted to be with the two children He created and have them obey Him. so there was a sense of good and bad from the very beginning, not since Christ's incarnation. so morality is ingrained in every human, whether they know a God or not. heck, even the idea of God Himself is in our very being as humans. when one is at a state of total desperation, when he has nothing to rely on, even the point of death, he will most likely call out to God.

Looking at that atheist bus pic, i see the idea of God is entirely wrong. we can enjoy life even with God in it. i don't see what there is to worry about...maybe you could explain that to me. i mean, America is in a downward spiral. you see violence all the time, such as school massacres . when Bibles were in schools, there weren't nearly as many distressed kids coming in with guns and going on a rampage. the decrease in Christian population seems to be a factor of the nation's troubles. if only people had a God to trust in and receive strength and determination from, there would be so much more hope. a boy given nine months to live on account of cancer five or so years ago is still alive today and sooo many more with similar stories are also healed in Jesus' name.

i can't imagine life without God.

so, izzy, you haven't changed my opinion, but i don't deny our country is going down a path of restriction.

[Izzy]

LJayDen, if you can pull up a SINGLE source to back any of your points (empirical evidence, discovered through meticulous testing and re-evaluation, not some testimonial crap), I might believe them. Because as it stands, it's like this. God answers prayers on a "Yes", "No", or "Maybe later!" basis. You can pray ANYTHING to ANY deity (FSM, FTW), and your results will be identical. Due to an outstanding Christian population, the fact that people with cancer will pray to <deity> is inherent within their nature, the amount of people "god" cures can not be accounted for. Cancer is still relatively unexplored and many treatments are rather tentative. This means we don't know everything, and the fact that some bodies can naturally overcome cancer doesn't mean a god did it. In fact, if prayer is a panacea, why won't god heal amputees?.

A declining Christian population being the cause for turmoil in this country is bull. On two reasons, one slightly spiritual (so you'll accept it haha), and one based on prison population. 1. Why would an all-loving god punish people based on the faults and failures of others? Is he really THAT insecure, that unless an entire country glorifies him at all times, he's going to besiege us with natural disasters? Wtf bro? Lawl.

2. Prison populations and the percentage of Christians! Google that shiz! Haha, also, rampages and stuff? Seriously? Name one war fought in the name of atheism? ..Or Buddhism! ..Or Hinduism! No. It's all you Judeo-Christian folk conquering Holy Lands and spreading your empire. God! Glory! Gold! 5th grade history ring a bell?

Also, if morality came from first sin (it didn't, but whatevs) there's still no need to post religious texts all over the place because it's ingrained in us all.

YOU can enjoy YOUR life with gawd in it, but the second YOU force YOUR god into MY life, boundaries are broken. Capiche?

[Izzy]

No dude, straight from the Constitution, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ." It doesn't matter where the actual phrase "Separation of Church and State" (I prefer the

) was derived because that's the expression used to abridge that statement. This means that, so long as we're in a democracy, keep your religion private and out of the government. Yes, this is freedom of religion in the sense that you cannot manhandle your religion down the throats of American citizens by making the Ten Commandments law based merely on the fact that they've come down from some "divine ruler". ("Not killing" is a bit different, because while it is also in the commandments, killing violates your inherent right to live, which is protected under the constitution.)

Oh, one more point. The laws of this country reign supreme. That's why, even in your church practices, you have to abide by US (or whatever country you're in) law. The government can't tell you how to run your church anymore than they can tell you how to run your household, but all laws need to still be followed. If you have a religious law in your church saying killing is 'aight, and you kill in your church, you're still breaking the law and will be jailed. Conversely, if your church says it's a law to wait until marriage to get laid, and some chick gets knocked up unwed, the courts are going to roll their eyes and laugh if you expect a serious punishment. ..I'm a bit confused why Native Americans get special treatment in regards to drug usage, though. =/

Edited June 18, 2010 by Izzy

[Guest]

a disadvantage for me in arguing this is that not a lot of scientists are looking for evidence to support creationism, and if they are, they aren't being public enough about it. all the science-related subjects are being studied with a darwin-evolutionary mindset. i'm young and i haven't been able to do lots of experimenting on my own, so until i learn more and more, i might throw a bit more testimonial crud out . God said "let your 'yes' be 'yes' and your 'no' be 'no'" and He's not hypocritical. He answers prayers on a yes and no basis, sure thing. and as it is, yes may not mean right away, and so there is no maybe. and, wait a minute, whatever happened to cancer being a terminal disease? recovery at all is a miracle

some of us Christians (highlight us because i'm excluding people like that 12 yr old who ruined the thread...i don't think he's genuinely a Christian at all ) have had visions over the years, one being which of a reservoir filled with human body parts. sound gruesome? the meaning of the dream was that God is going to be renewing maimed people and such. it may not be so apparent as a dismembered arm growing back, but it has started internally: organs such as kidneys and even intestines miraculously replaced. the problem with your "experiment" on God healing amputees is that God said Himself "do not put the Lord your God to the test" the person whose useless intestines were miraculously replaced was prayed for by a little girl who had a little faith, (little, but genuine <--that's the key)and reached out to pray for the person

so why does God punish people for not following Him? well, why does a parent spank their child for not obeying? same basis: training. perhaps you haven't experienced that...i don't know.

uhm, and i don't recall Hitler or Mussolini or Nero (etc) going on world conquests in the name of God, have you?

and take it easy, i'm not trying to shove it down your throat, risking having you choke on it...i'm just throwing the idea out there and trusting in the Lord that something good will come out of it...

[Izzy]

a disadvantage for me in arguing this is that not a lot of scientists are looking for evidence to support creationism, and if they are, they aren't being public enough about it. all the science-related subjects are being studied with a darwin-evolutionary mindset. i'm young and i haven't been able to do lots of experimenting on my own, so until i learn more and more, i might throw a bit more testimonial crud out .

Back up. Evolution was NOT commonly accepted until the 1930s. Before that, it faced enormous opposition, but people eventually overcame this because of the overwhelming evidence. There are team of scientists WORLD WIDE doing nothing but trying to prove your silly little saviour. Google them, yeah? Bananaman (Ray Comfort) is probably also you'll be interested in seeing, type that into the YouTube search engine. It's not very public because they've yet to discover one iota of evidence for your creator. Presumably, the reason only 7% of scientists believe in a god is because as scientists and not members of the general public, they realize the importance of concrete evidence and don't make conscious efforts to deny truths placed before them. If you're really open minded about this, which all scientists should be (and if you're going to make any scientific endeavors AT ALL), I suggest you read "God: The Failed Hypothesis".

I am also young (we're the same age actually ), but that has never hampered my ability to educate myself and seek out others' experiments. There was a pretty good one about prayer. A church was asked to come pray for people in a hospital, and a computer told them who to pray for and whether or not to tell them so it was all random. Half told the people they were praying for them, half didn't. Results? The deaths from both groups were about even, a little more in the group that knew they were praying for them (supposedly a placebo, because they thought they needed to be prayed for). Basically, shows NO divine intervention, meaning praying is pointless.

Throwing out more testimonial crud? C'mon, even you should see why that's pointless. =/

God said "let your 'yes' be 'yes' and your 'no' be 'no'" and He's not hypocritical. He answers prayers on a yes and no basis, sure thing. and as it is, yes may not mean right away, and so there is no maybe. and, wait a minute, whatever happened to cancer being a terminal disease? recovery at all is a miracle

Sorry, it should have been "Yes", "No", "Wait a little bit". And that doesn't change the fact that I can pray to a potato chip and get the same results.

WOAH. Cancer isn't terminal. Even "terminal cancer" isn't terminal. Cancer is irregular cell growth during meiosis when the cell splits (lol, can't remember stages right now). Obviously, your body is going to consider this a foreign cell and try to destroy it. Our bodies are incredible things, and are constantly working to rebuild themselves. Just because we don't know exactly what peoples' bodies are doing when they "miraculously" recover doesn't mean god did it.

*shrug* Why would gawd make cancer? ..Or he didn't, the devil did, and gawd isn't strong enough over come it? So much for an omnipotent being..

some of us Christians (highlight us because i'm excluding people like that 12 yr old who ruined the thread...i don't think he's genuinely a Christian at all ) have had visions over the years, one being which of a reservoir filled with human body parts. sound gruesome? the meaning of the dream was that God is going to be renewing maimed people and such. it may not be so apparent as a dismembered arm growing back, but it has started internally: organs such as kidneys and even intestines miraculously replaced.

I have dreams too! They're like fortune cookies and horoscopes. You can interpret them however you want, that doesn't mean they're from god and it doesn't mean your interpretation is right. I could interpret that as you repressing your serial killing past and wanting your god to forgive your past. Or it means you aren't done killing and can't wait for your reservoir to fill completely. (It's okay, you know, I'm right, God told me.)

Why would god only show himself to a small elite via dreams?

the problem with your "experiment" on God healing amputees is that God said Himself "do not put the Lord your God to the test" the person whose useless intestines were miraculously replaced was prayed for by a little girl who had a little faith, (little, but genuine <--that's the key)and reached out to pray for the person

It wasn't an experiment. It's a website based off of an observation. Amputees legitimately pray for their limbs back, but gawd never supplies. What gives?

so why does God punish people for not following Him? well, why does a parent spank their child for not obeying? same basis: training. perhaps you haven't experienced that...i don't know.

uhm, and i don't recall Hitler or Mussolini or Nero (etc) going on world conquests in the name of God, have you?

Why do parents spank their kids? I wouldn't know. Maybe if you actually explain to your kid what they're doing wrong, they'll stop. The logic being "I won't lie because it makes people feel bad and shatters my good reputation with trust", rather than "I won't lie because daddy will hit me!"

Doesn't matter. You mentioned Hitler, you broke Godwin's Law and consequently lose the thread.

and take it easy, i'm not trying to shove it down your throat, risking having you choke on it...i'm just throwing the idea out there and trusting in the Lord that something good will come out of it...

*shrug* Doubtful.

My apologies for removing your color, btw. Too much effort to maintain that with all these quotes.

[Izzy]

a disadvantage for me in arguing this is that not a lot of scientists are looking for evidence to support creationism, and if they are, they aren't being public enough about it. all the science-related subjects are being studied with a darwin-evolutionary mindset. i'm young and i haven't been able to do lots of experimenting on my own, so until i learn more and more, i might throw a bit more testimonial crud out .

Back up. Evolution was NOT commonly accepted until the 1930s. Before that, it faced enormous opposition, but people eventually overcame this because of the overwhelming evidence. There are team of scientists WORLD WIDE doing nothing but trying to prove your silly little saviour. Google them, yeah? Bananaman (Ray Comfort) is probably also you'll be interested in seeing, type that into the YouTube search engine. It's not very public because they've yet to discover one iota of evidence for your creator. Presumably, the reason only 7% of scientists believe in a god is because as scientists and not members of the general public, they realize the importance of concrete evidence and don't make conscious efforts to deny truths placed before them. If you're really open minded about this, which all scientists should be (and if you're going to make any scientific endeavors AT ALL), I suggest you read "God: The Failed Hypothesis".

I am also young (we're the same age actually ), but that has never hampered my ability to educate myself and seek out others' experiments. There was a pretty good one about prayer. A church was asked to come pray for people in a hospital, and a computer told them who to pray for and whether or not to tell them so it was all random. Half told the people they were praying for them, half didn't. Results? The deaths from both groups were about even, a little more in the group that knew they were praying for them (supposedly a placebo, because they thought they needed to be prayed for). Basically, shows NO divine intervention, meaning praying is pointless.

Throwing out more testimonial crud? C'mon, even you should see why that's pointless. =/

God said "let your 'yes' be 'yes' and your 'no' be 'no'" and He's not hypocritical. He answers prayers on a yes and no basis, sure thing. and as it is, yes may not mean right away, and so there is no maybe. and, wait a minute, whatever happened to cancer being a terminal disease? recovery at all is a miracle

Sorry, it should have been "Yes", "No", "Wait a little bit". And that doesn't change the fact that I can pray to a potato chip and get the same results.

WOAH. Cancer isn't terminal. Even "terminal cancer" isn't terminal. Cancer is irregular cell growth during meiosis when the cell splits (lol, can't remember stages right now). Obviously, your body is going to consider this a foreign cell and try to destroy it. Our bodies are incredible things, and are constantly working to rebuild themselves. Just because we don't know exactly what peoples' bodies are doing when they "miraculously" recover doesn't mean god did it.

*shrug* Why would gawd make cancer? ..Or he didn't, the devil did, and gawd isn't strong enough over come it? So much for an omnipotent being..

some of us Christians (highlight us because i'm excluding people like that 12 yr old who ruined the thread...i don't think he's genuinely a Christian at all ) have had visions over the years, one being which of a reservoir filled with human body parts. sound gruesome? the meaning of the dream was that God is going to be renewing maimed people and such. it may not be so apparent as a dismembered arm growing back, but it has started internally: organs such as kidneys and even intestines miraculously replaced.

I have dreams too! They're like fortune cookies and horoscopes. You can interpret them however you want, that doesn't mean they're from god and it doesn't mean your interpretation is right. I could interpret that as you repressing your serial killing past and wanting your god to forgive your past. Or it means you aren't done killing and can't wait for your reservoir to fill completely. (It's okay, you know, I'm right, God told me.)

Why would god only show himself to a small elite via dreams?

the problem with your "experiment" on God healing amputees is that God said Himself "do not put the Lord your God to the test" the person whose useless intestines were miraculously replaced was prayed for by a little girl who had a little faith, (little, but genuine <--that's the key)and reached out to pray for the person

It wasn't an experiment. It's a website based off of an observation. Amputees legitimately pray for their limbs back, but gawd never supplies. What gives?

so why does God punish people for not following Him? well, why does a parent spank their child for not obeying? same basis: training. perhaps you haven't experienced that...i don't know.

uhm, and i don't recall Hitler or Mussolini or Nero (etc) going on world conquests in the name of God, have you?

Why do parents spank their kids? I wouldn't know. Maybe if you actually explain to your kid what they're doing wrong, they'll stop. The logic being "I won't lie because it makes people feel bad and shatters my good reputation with trust", rather than "I won't lie because daddy will hit me!"

Doesn't matter. You mentioned Hitler, you broke Godwin's Law and consequently lose the thread.

and take it easy, i'm not trying to shove it down your throat, risking having you choke on it...i'm just throwing the idea out there and trusting in the Lord that something good will come out of it...

*shrug* Doubtful.

My apologies for removing your color, btw. Too much effort to maintain that with all these quotes.

[Guest]

okay guys for the last time, IM NOT RACIST!!! god made all of us equally. just think! when god made races, he evenly distributed all the people. so an american is "worth" more than a chinese, is which why god made more chinese people - to even things out. so the people there are the least of, god loves most. its like with wenis size (i promise im not making this up, its human anatomy - which god also made when he made people). chinese/asian people have the smallest penises (well, so i hear, i dont actually check because im a boy and im not gay, becasue thats disgusting), white people the medimum sized penises, and black people the biggest. same with butts and boobs on women!!! this is becuase thats the order god loves people most in (but he events it out. like three chinese men make one white wenis, and there are like three times as meny chinese people!) oh. i think that means god loves black people the most, so jesus must have been black.. i disprovedf my previous argument, but i jsut proved that i love black people becuase i love jesus. in fact, if i had the choice, i would be black just like stars n stripes wants to be.

Now, i got a warning saying i have to be respectful and stuff in the forum. i dont want any of you to take offence to that, becasue im not doing anything offenseives. im just pointing out, culutrally, what kind of people have what kind of "parts". ok?

[Guest]

yes, God made us all equally, but He has no favorites at all. He loves every person in their own specific way, but He doesn't love one person more than the other. abortion has killed over 50 million would-be Americans: that's a factor of why there aren't as many Americans as there are people on other countries.

edit: you're using the wrong "facts" to argue this. everyone has their own unique combo of sizes, shapes, etc...whatever

Edited June 18, 2010 by LJayden

[Izzy]

abortion has killed over 50 million would-be Americans: that's a factor of why there aren't as many Americans as there are people on other countries.

(Abortion has prevented the life of 50-mil+ Americans, but if we're comparing country population, that's a pretty insignificant factor. America is enormous. Populations by country:

China: 1,324,655,000

USA: 307,006,550

England: 49,138,831

Germany: 82,110,097

Russia: 141,950,000

Brazil: 191,971,506

)

*edit* No reply to my post? D: (I dunno if you saw it, the board was being screwy earlier.)

Edited June 18, 2010 by Izzy

[Guest]

still, it's a factor, along with many others in history (i.e. the Civil War, the world wars,etc) but no i'm not pacifist, just pointing it out.

[Izzy]

Eh, if you believe in Gawd, Gawd's fault. He willingly allowed a sproglet to sprout inside a woman he knew (with his omniscience) would abort. God's a baby murderer, atheists just eat them.