[Izzy]

Because I need your help, online petition style. What I've typed up below is some reasoning for why the pledge, in schools, is just entirely wrong. It's an edited version of what I'm handing my school administrators when I have enough signatures. So please, if you agree, sign the online petition. It takes two seconds.

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/say-no-to-the-pledge/index.html

---

As a student, I am led to believe that schools are institutions which exist to instill education and good moral conduct into their students, without swaying or impacting their political or religious affiliations. While the schools I attended, including Seminole, did an excellent job of maintaining a neutral atmosphere in regards to politics, it has come to my attention that some students are much less than satisfied with how the Pledge of Allegiance is administered. This has nothing to do with anti-American, anti-government, anti-justice-for-all, etc. feelings.Schools are meant to strive to be impartial on matters which can influence the opinions of their students. Therefore we feel that the mandatory Pledge of Allegiance means that the views of the government are being unfairly forced upon us. Certain aspects of life, such as beliefs and allegiances, should be determined within the household and with one's parents, not taught and practiced within schools. By all means, TEACH the pledge, its meaning, and its importance to American history/culture/society. However, demanding students actively participate (even respectfully declining, in essence, is still participation, just by presence) is in all respects, unconstitutional. Again, it is not the actual content of the pledge we take issue with, it's the fact that the school openly chooses one side. This is akin to the school defining itself as liberal or conservative, and results in children before they can comprehend the meaning of the pledge. It is unfair and quite unjustified. With all due respect, the pledge is inappropriate in schools in the same sense that instructional time set aside for coordinated group prayer is. Religious instruction is already deemed unsuitable, and we believe there is some commonality for the same reasons. For example, rather than setting class time aside for the pledge, students who wish to take the pledge can, for the twenty seconds it takes to say it, meet up before school much the same way the faith-based student group we have meets and prays in the mornings.By doing so, everyone is treated equitably, and those wishing to opt out no longer have to feel awkward about it because it will no longer be a classroom issue.

[Guest]

my last period teacher doesn't even give us a choice even more.

[Izzy]

To do it or not do it?

[Guest]

yes it is pretty much forced. No one has taken a stand and just not done it, but a child named justin was putting away his books and my teacher said,"Justin stand up.".

[Guest]

So why not petition to take out "Under God" instead of the whole thing?

[Guest]

So why not petition to take out "Under God" instead of the whole thing?

Thats not the point, the point is if you don't want to pledge then you are very awkward.

[Izzy]

So why not petition to take out "Under God" instead of the whole thing?

It's not about the "Under God". It's the fact that students are being forced to say things they don't want to say/don't understand and speaking out against it will get you told off or teased by your classmates. It's not the wording of the pledge I don't agree with (well... different story), it's that the pledge shouldn't exist in schools in the first place.

[unreality]

I signed it And my comment was

When I was younger I was made to say the pledge without even thinking about what I was saying. Since when have schools become institutions of brainwashing? Please take the pledge out of mandatory school settings!

[Izzy]

Thanks.

Edited December 6, 2009 by Izzy

[Guest]

I refuse to sign this hogwash. I could find stronger words for it, but that would not be appropriate for this setting. If you don't like the fact that every American citizen, who has rights and priveledges under American law, has to bear true faith to the same, then by all means, it's a free WORLD, go to a country that you're better able to stomach the laws. The idea that you as a citizen are NOT beholden to America, which is the country that you live in, that supports you in your endeavors, is ludicrous. You are, of course, entitled to your own opinion, but remember before you start trying to devalue the lives of those that die for you to be able to have your opinion that if you are not bringing honour on yourself, your family, and your country by doing or saying what you ARE doing or saying, then you're in direct opposition to good order and the basis that this country was founded upon.

Here is the oath that I took to support and defend MY country:

I, Christopher Jonah Nelson, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic;

that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same;

and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

So help me God.

Here is the code that I live by in every day life:

I am a United States Sailor.

I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America and I will obey the orders of those appointed over me.

I represent the fighting spirit of America and all who have gone before me to defend freedom and democracy around the world.

I proudly serve my country's Navy combat team with Honor, Courage and Commitment.

I am commited to excellence and the fair treatment of all.

The very fact that you wrote this sentence:

"By all means, TEACH the pledge, its meaning, and its importance to American history/culture/society."

in the context of removing the Pledge from our nation's centers of learning means that you have no understanding of what the Pledge of Allegiance actually means, what it stands for, the importance of it, or what the price really is for you to be able to sit in your home and complain about everything that doesn't go your way. A price that I pay, and people I know and love, people I work with every day of my life pay every single day of our lives. What a joke! You are really complaining over an internet forum about having to stand up for ONE MINUTE a day and repeat something that apparently you have no appreciation for anyways.

And if you think for even one minute that this is an appropriate place to bring this topic up in the first place, you are dead wrong. If you have a problem with something in YOUR school, take it to YOUR school. If you have a problem with something in YOUR government, take it to YOUR government. Defaming and defacing the basic tenets and principles of the United States on an internet forum is beyond low. Next time you want to bring something like this up...put some thought into the kinds of people that would be receiving it. This is one of the most childish, selfish forum topics I have ever seen, and I am apalled that it ever existed in the first place.

[plasmid]

Heh. I was brought up as a Jehovah's Witness and was taught by them not to pledge allegiance to the flag. Even after leaving, I've got to admit that I think they were right on this one. They were right for the wrong reasons of course, but right nonetheless.

@Medji: Even though I agree that the United States is a shining example of how allowing individual freedom under a democratic government can lead to a society greater than any the world has previously seen, I still think that having little kids pledge their allegiance to a nation they barely comprehend is a bit silly. Let them do it as adults, when they can appreciate the magnitude of the words they're saying. I'd be willing to do it now whereas I wasn't back then. (Well, except for that "under God" part anyway.)

[Guest]

I signed it. I have no disrespect for our fellow countrymen and women fighting on the front lines. In fact, they are some of the people I respect the most. That doesn't mean I agree with what they are fighting for, but that's a different discussion.

Just because I don't want to watch people around me mumble words they don't know the meaning to doesn't mean I hate this country. The pledge to me is more like what the country wants to be, not what it really is. That doesn't make me a bad person or a bad citizen.

[Izzy]

Medji, I'm sorry, because I seem to have offended you, and that wasn't my intention. I just want to clear up some things. Firstly, dude, I'm not against America. This country is awesome. Freedom of speech is an amazing things. The Pledge of Allegiance is fine, and a personal CHOICE. I would never call out someone who chooses to say it, and I think it's good to love your country. However, FORCING students to say anything goes against the very freedoms our soldiers are fighting for. By making the pledge a mandatory part of every day life, a students' right to an uninfluenced education is being infringed. I go to school to learn, not make political promises.

The very fact that you wrote this sentence:

"By all means, TEACH the pledge, its meaning, and its importance to American history/culture/society."

in the context of removing the Pledge from our nation's centers of learning means that you have no understanding of what the Pledge of Allegiance actually means, what it stands for, the importance of it

No, I don't. Do you know why? Because the pledge in a historical context has NEVER been covered in the schools I have attended. The first week of kindergarten we recited it a few times as a class to ensure we knew it, and never questioned it. Do you except four-five year olds to understand what they're saying? Some might, the vast majority don't. This is the very definition of indoctrination. Around third grade we learned that we could politely decline (no teacher ever told us, some kid just decided not to say it some day, and a bunch of my class mates made a big deal about it), but presence and standing is still mandatory. Yes, everyone has the right to say the pledge, I get that. But instructional time set aside for it is *wrong*, because schools are secular (in a political sense) institutions where students go to learn.

And if you think for even one minute that this is an appropriate place to bring this topic up in the first place, you are dead wrong. If you have a problem with something in YOUR school, take it to YOUR school. If you have a problem with something in YOUR government, take it to YOUR government. Defaming and defacing the basic tenets and principles of the United States on an internet forum is beyond low. Next time you want to bring something like this up...put some thought into the kinds of people that would be receiving it.

I am taking it to my school board. I have about a 200ish person long list of students who go to my school who agree with me. Not bad for a few days. We're going to continue getting signatures until the end of December and submit a formal complaint during the last week before winter holidays. I don't yet know where it will go, but being able to point to an online petition with more signatures is never a bad thing.

This is one of the most childish, selfish forum topics I have ever seen, and I am apalled that it ever existed in the first place.

...Only because you disagree with it. All you've proven with this comment is that you're extremely close-minded when it comes to issues about your country and hostile to those who disagree with you.

[Guest]

@music_luvr: We fight the country's battles. We don't choose them. That's up to congressmen. (NOT THE PRESIDENT) The Congress is the only power in the United States able to ratify a declaration of war.

@Izzy: If you want to understand the Pledge of Allegiance, read it and study it. It's written in plain language. Every single American has a responsibility to their country, whether they want to admit it or not. And a lot of people are fulfilling it. Not in the same way, but they are. Every single congressman is up there doing what they can to make the country a better place. It may be misplaced actions, but the attempts are there. Donald Trump is doing his part by creating businesses in America that flourish and create trade and capital for Americans. Every person has a different part of making this country a better place, but I don't see how removing one of the basic tenets of the American ideal is going to HELP the country.

And you want to talk about indoctrination? When was the first time your parents told you not to hit, and punished you for hitting? I don't see a petition here to remove the teaching of children to behave. Sounds to me like you're picking and choosing when to object to something and when not to. If you're so against indoctrination, then why don't you be fully against indoctrination? Petition to change EVERYTHING that is the way it is into something it's not. And then petition to have it change again, because at that point, everyone is going to start teaching it the new way.

[Guest]

I would love to support you, but I don't quite know if my vote would count. The fact is that you could find at least 200 people all over the planet who would share your sentiments, but chances are that the school board won't care about them. If you went online and petitioned to start a jihad, you should also find a large amount of wack-jobs who will support you too, but the school board wouldn't count that as good reason to start a holy war. You could try and sue the school, but chances are you don't have enough money to do that kind of thing, and then everybody would think you were a whack-job. I'd just refuse to say the pledge period and sit down when everyone else stands up.

Besides, their was already in anti-pledge movement in your area in 2006. If any one complains refer them to. If your teachers persist, threaten them.

Frazier vs Alexandre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Pledge_of_Allegiance

http://www.nsba.org/MainMenu/SchoolLaw/Issues/StudentRights/RecentCases/FraziervAlexandreNo0581142SDFlaMay312006.aspx

[Izzy]

Medji, I'm making this quick because I have to leave for school about... 5 minutes ago.

Dude, entirely missing my point. Parents should be the ones teaching their children these sorts of things. Admittedly, "don't hit" is a good rule, and some forms of indoctrination are, but specifically religious and political indoctrination should be done by the parents and NOT the schools. I agree with what an earlier poster said. Teach the kid about the pledge, but leave it up to the kid if s/he wants to say it or not. ..But not in schools, because it's not appropriate to pray there or take school-time away to make pledges to pizzas, the internet, bands, etc. Btw, I AM helping my country. I am a proponent of fairness, whether others are able to see the problem or not.

Romulus, ftw. I'll read later after school.

[Guest]

it said the pledge was written by a Cristian socialist, but no citation. Some POed atheist could just go on wikipedia and right that.

(edit) to medji, you can't just go all the way or not. We shouldn't shower iran with gifts, nor should we nuke the $%&$^&#@$ out of them. Tepidity is sometimes a good thing.

Edited December 7, 2009 by pablos4pandas

[Izzy]

Thanks.

I'd love to know why this post was voted down twice? I see we no longer regard thanking people with content. If you disagree with me, that's cool, but act like an adult about it and don't just down-vote posts. ..Or at least posts that have nothing to actually do with the discussion?

I only post because my rating seems to have plummeted since I was last online. Mature, very mature.

[Guest]

So you retaliate by voting down someone that you *suspect* did something instead of having any evidence? I said I disagree with your post. I didn't say that I voted you down. If you were voted down, it's because someone obviously thought that something was amiss. TWO people, in fact, since it was voted down twice. Hypocrisy reigns. Just like in your petition. I already said my piece, and if you don't like it, then that's your prerogative. Quit jacking with MY reputation just because you think that I might have done something to you.

[Izzy]

Think again. I'm not the one that voted you down, bro. That was someone else (or more than one person) because mine seems to have gone back up. (The amount I actually care about my reputation on these boards for the little vote things is little, because I've been here long enough to be known/liked/respected by most of the users anyway. It was just a total d**k move.)

Where am I being a hypocrite exactly? The thing about not entirely understanding the pledge but wanting to remove it? (I've created my own meaning for it, if that's different than the intended meaning, the schools are at fault.) You yourself are a total hypocrite by fighting for the freedom of others and then calling said fights for freedom "hogwash" just because they disagree with what you feel if your perfect view of government (with freedom, justice, and no right to think differently for all ).

Do you actually have any reasons why this should exist in schools? How is this different than prayer (other than by the US actually existing, lol)?

Annd, brb school.

[Guest]

I guess I'll add my two cents to the matter...

I have to agree with Plasmid on this. It seems at best silly (in my mind) to have a bunch of little kids recite something which they almost certainly can't understand* and probably can't comprehend the underlying meaning.

But if we leave out the case of forcing those unable to appreciate its significance from our discussion and assume that we are only talking about those old enough to understand the pledge, then I am in the middle between Izzy and Medji. I personally have little interest in symbolism and such things. Yes, reciting the Pledge of Allegiance is a show of patriotic fervor and a sign that you truly support the country, but I don't see how anyone who doesn't state the pledge out loud is any less of a patriot than someone who does. As long as they both feel patriotic and loyal to the essence of the pledge, why should I care if they want to recite it? This country existed for 100 years before the Pledge of Allegiance even existed and I don't think the patriots of that time were any less than the ones that exist now. The pledge and the flag and the like are just symbols of our freedoms, but lacking those symbols, we would still be just as free. So I really don't find any reason to get worked up over the whole thing.

The whole "Under God" thing is a slightly different story. A lot of Christian revisionists like to say that the US of A is a nation founded on conservative, Christian values, but there's a lot of wiggle room on how "Christian" most of the Founding Fathers actually were, and I'm sorry, but this country was founded from a revolution and the Constitution was written up based upon some of the most progressive thinking of the time, so I don't see how they can argue the whole "conservative, Christian" thing in good faith. So I'd be more supportive of the Pledge if it didn't have nutcases adding words to try to impose their own interpretation of history onto the rest of us. So in that respect I'm sympathetic to Izzy's point of view, and I think that compulsory recitation is a bit unnecessary and regardless, I think it's a rather stupid issue for people to get worked up over. The recitation (or non-recitation) of the Pledge does not a Patriot make. It matters more what you believe in your heart and no words can truly express that sentiment.

I really think people on both sides need to cool down.

* In my own experience, we did recite the Pledge of Allegiance when I was in Kindergarten/First Grade and then never bothered again because while it holds symbolic significance, teachers were there for teaching, not patriotism. Looking at the words:

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands: one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

How many kids that age are going to know the meaning of the following words: "allegiance," "republic," "indivisible" and even "liberty" or "justice"? Those are the most important words in the pledge, but most kids are still learning their letters at that point, so reciting the pledge becomes little more than rote memorization of phonetic sounds, holding almost no meaning for the majority of the kids at the time. It's a fine show of patriotism, but it really is a wasted effort on young kids.

[Guest]

maybe a compromise? students could vote, or make sitting a known option.

[unreality]

how about just taking "under God" out of the pledge? I like the rest of the pledge. It shows our unity and strength as a nation to overcome close-mindedness and fight for our freedom and diversity (ethnic/religious/cultural diversity all under the banner of the flag, etc). The founders of America were running from religious persecution and other horrible problems that arose throughout Europe when religion and government were integrated. They wanted to institute a free nation that was independent of religion (ie - secular) and allowed all faiths/lacks thereof to flourish.

According to these sources:

http://www.homeofheroes.com/hallofheroes/1st_floor/flag/1bfc_pledge.html

http://undergod.procon.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance#Addition_of_the_words_.22under_God.22

the "under God" wasn't added until 1954, over sixty years after the pledge was initially established.

[Izzy]

Talked to one of my teachers today. My argument needs more work before it takes off, but I think I might actually be able to do this.

We're, as of now, unsure how the standing policy in my county works. My class's student council members definitely said we have to stand, and there was an entire student congress meeting dedicated to it, but my teacher said we don't. So, dunno. Standing or not, it shouldn't be in schools.

[Guest]

Talked to one of my teachers today. My argument needs more work before it takes off, but I think I might actually be able to do this.

We're, as of now, unsure how the standing policy in my county works. My class's student council members definitely said we have to stand, and there was an entire student congress meeting dedicated to it, but my teacher said we don't. So, dunno. Standing or not, it shouldn't be in schools.

im gonna check at my school

[Guest]

Talked to one of my teachers today. My argument needs more work before it takes off, but I think I might actually be able to do this.

We're, as of now, unsure how the standing policy in my county works. My class's student council members definitely said we have to stand, and there was an entire student congress meeting dedicated to it, but my teacher said we don't. So, dunno. Standing or not, it shouldn't be in schools.

Whoa, you got student council involved? Nice!! Where I live, if I brought this kind of thing to my student council, they wouldn't give me the light of day. (Luckily, we only say the pledge on special occasions, and nobody cares if you opt out.) Have you read the articles I referred to? These involved actual legal cases. I quote:

"A federal district court in Florida has ruled that a 1942 state law requiring students to stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance violates the First and Fourteenth Amendments of the U.S. Constitution, even though the law allows students to opt out, because they can only do so with written parental permission and are still required to stand during the recitation"

They gave the kid 32.5 k after the ruling. In other words, if your teacher forces you to pledge, you can prosecute.