[Guest]

I hope you will find this text interesting.

According to science our universe (space-time) has a beginning (http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9403004).This paper is written by the cosmologist Alexander Vilenkin of the Tufts university and Arvind Bonde.)

It is a fundamental law of physics (causality) that every physical occurrence in the universe has a cause. Since space-time has a beginning there was a first physical occurrence. Causality requires that the first physical occurrence had a cause. Causality and the fact that space-time has a beginning implies that this Prime Cause is non-dimensional and independent of space-time.

To conclude the above paragraphs:

Fact: No thing nor event in the known universe or laws of physics lacks a cause.

Assume: There is no Prime Cause (Creator).

Ergo: There is no universe.

Fact: There is a universe.

Therefore: the statement that was assumed is proven to be a false statement by reduction ad absurdum (proof by disproof).

(Since "There is no Creator" is proven false, the opposite is true: There is a Creator.)

Being logically consistent (orderly), our (to say perfectly-orderly would be a tautology) orderly universe must mirror its Prime Cause / Singularity-Creator—Who must be Orderly; i.e. Perfect. An orderly—"not capricious," as Einstein put it—Creator (also implying Just), therefore, necessarily had an Intelligent Purpose in creating this universe and us within it and, being Just and Orderly, necessarily placed an explanation, a "Life's Instruction Manual," within the reach of His subjects—humankind.

It defies the orderliness (logic / mathematics) of both the universe and Perfection of its Creator to assert that humanity was (contrary to His Torah, see below) without any means of rapproachment until millennia after the first couple in recorded history as well as millennia after Abraham, Moses and the prophets. Therefore, the Creator's "Life's Instruction Manual" has been available to man at least since the beginning of recorded history. The only enduring document of this kind is the Torah —which, interestingly, translates to "Instruction" (not "law" as popularly alleged). (Some of the text is a quote from www.netzarim.co.il)

The fact that the Creator is perfect implies that He isn’t self-contradictory. Therefore any religion, and all religions contradicts each other (otherwise they would be identical), that contradicts Torah is the antithesis to the Creator.

The most common counter arguments are answered here: http://bloganders.blogspot.com/search/label/counter%20arguments)

Anders Branderud

[Guest]

I saw a show about rejected parts of the bible. One talked about celibacy, would that be worth a topic?

[Izzy]

Medji, that's not what I base my atheism on, but my point stands. Why would a god that knows past, present, and future f**k up so completely, THRICE (original sin, Noah's Ark, bringing Jesus to fix his past blunderings)? Sure, it's probably loads of fun, but, a. that means this god isn't as powerful as believers accept him to be b. who would even want to worship a god who simply toys with humanity? c. just wtf at the whole concept.

If you want to have an ACTUAL debate (I base nothing off of the above, Jews are just as wrong as the rest of the Abrahamic faiths, it's just a little added "lol"), we could go on for a few days (dunno if I can actually be arsed to do this again), admit it comes down to faith, and neither side is moved at on.

Or we can skip that. And, you know, get on with life. Unless you have some amazing proof (or evidence, either is acceptable) for your god, by all means, bring it forth. I'll glady hear/debunk it. Or some sort of justification of blind faith. 'Til then: homeworkzzz.

[Guest]

Medji, that's not what I base my atheism on, but my point stands. Why would a god that knows past, present, and future f**k up so completely, THRICE (original sin, Noah's Ark, bringing Jesus to fix his past blunderings)? Sure, it's probably loads of fun, but, a. that means this god isn't as powerful as believers accept him to be b. who would even want to worship a god who simply toys with humanity? c. just wtf at the whole concept.

If you want to have an ACTUAL debate (I base nothing off of the above, Jews are just as wrong as the rest of the Abrahamic faiths, it's just a little added "lol"), we could go on for a few days (dunno if I can actually be arsed to do this again), admit it comes down to faith, and neither side is moved at on.

Or we can skip that. And, you know, get on with life. Unless you have some amazing proof (or evidence, either is acceptable) for your god, by all means, bring it forth. I'll glady hear/debunk it. Or some sort of justification of blind faith. 'Til then: homeworkzzz.

Again, if you had even a BASIC understanding of the Bible, you would know the basic principle which caused certain events to happen as they did. From what I can see, all you have is a heated emotional opinion without having done your homework. Which is why I dismissed your argument as irrelevant.

[Izzy]

I know enough about the Bible to cast the entire tale off as irrelevant when it comes to evidence of the entire being it illustrates.

[Izzy]

I saw a show about rejected parts of the bible. One talked about celibacy, would that be worth a topic?

*shrug* If people want to purposely deprive themselves of a basic human instinct with reproductive and pleasurable benefits, it's up to them. As a species, we aren't in the slightest affected by a few people's choice to opt out of sex. Celibacy.. meh.

[Guest]

my personal proof of the existence of God:

perhaps not the most rational or logical proof, But I feel God has helped me out of many a tough spot. for example, yesterday I was feeling very depressed, but oddly alert as well. I decided to go for a jog just to try to clear my head. Along the way I talked to some people, and was looking for signs as to what I should do. while talking, this van drove by, zepherhills, saying for home delivery, call yatta yatta number. but this van drove by me 3 times. I took this as a sign. I called the number, it was just zepherhills of course, so I hung up. I suddenly felt very thirsty. so I got myself some water, and turned on some music. you know what song played? "hey, don't write yourself off yet...", the very next song was "looking for a life line..." . by then I had finished my water and my parents get home. I feel these songs helped calm me down a bit. I told them about what I was feeling. we had a discussion. I kinda feel my life has been leading up to these sorts of moments.

not everything is a sign of course, most things aren't. but I think if you truly trust God, he'll help you when you truly need it. note however, it is up to you what signs you listen to, and what path you choose.

Sorry to go so far back but I've been offline for a while and I thought this was too interesting not to comment on. The first thing that strikes me on reading this is the conspicuous absence of anything miraculous or otherwise evidential. I was actually quite surprised when you got to the bit about calling the zepherhills number, I half expected that you would have spoke to some random person who listened to your problems, or just said something unintentionally apt like "Dude, this is zepherhills. If you want water delivery, call us. If you need to talk, ask your parents". I mean, it's not all that unlikely, and you can see how it would have made a more convincing "proof of God's existence" story. Ask yourself honestly, if the zepherhills "sign" had amounted to something more substantial would you have considered it evidence of divine intervention?

If the answer to the above question is "yes", consider now whether the fact that the "sign" failed to amount to anything is something you consider as evidence that divine intervention does not exist. It would appear that you don't, and even include it as evidence for God since it forms part of a sequence of fairly random events that culminated in you having a good talk with your parents. This is clearly a very selective way of viewing events, and I can't help but conclude that with such a mindset you would inevitably find "signs" and "proof of the existence of God" on many occasions, just by seeing randomly formed patterns in the normal course of events.

That said, the approach you took on that day may have been instrumental in achieving the good conclusion of that constructive discussion. When we have a problem, sometimes we need to clear our minds. The conscious mind can have such a tight grip on the problem that it's incapable of turning it around to see it from another angle. Particularly when we feel depressed, we can be quite blind to the choices we have and stuck in a rut of repeating a single ineffective course of action (or inaction). I'm sure going for a jog helped, but oddly I think that looking for a sign from God may also have helped. Sometimes I used to deal with tough situations by consulting the I Ching. If you're not familiar with that, it's a way of throwing coins to select a text to guide you in your actions. The texts tend to be quite ambiguous by nature, like a horoscope but a bit more interesting. Here's an online I Ching you can play with. You're supposed to consult the I Ching very solemnly and seriously, as if it has real powers of divination. It's pointless otherwise. I have difficulty with that, but I try to suspend my disbelief as you do when watching a movie. Believing in the "power" of the I Ching is part of what makes it work. Basically you're removing the problem from your own control and "sharing" it with the I Ching. The ceremony matters. Writing it down matters. It helps to break your fixed grip on the problem and let yourself see it differently. It seems like you did the same by sharing your problem with God. The mysticism and sense of releasing control to higher forces may play a useful role in overcoming mental blocks. By looking for "signs" you heightened your awareness of your own feelings (note when you became aware that you were thirsty, you were probably thirsty before but not aware of it), and opened yourself up to random influences.

[Guest]

This is somewhat irrelevant and irreverent, but I was reading one thing about how people make decisions about food 20 more times than they think they do, about 250 in a day, and this is one reason why many USAns eat more than they should. Then again, I've also been told that most people are usually mildly dehydrated.

Anyway... giving in to a higher power (beyond my parents) is an idea that's never sat well with me. I can see why people might take comfort in it, but I think there are better methods of meditation/self-consolation. Also, it's presence in the 12-step program is just blatantly religious.

EDIT: The motto of OctopuppyCorp should be "Don't Be Too Evil"

Edited January 7, 2010 by DarthNoob

[Guest]

EDIT: The motto of OctopuppyCorp should be "Don't Be Too Evil"

The board of directors had a meeting about that and decided that since we couldn't decide how evil "too evil" would be, it would have to go without saying (see Prisoner's Dilemma topic for updates on current evil policy)

[Guest]

the ultimate proof of God's existence?

caution, there are a couple of gross scenes.

[unreality]

the ultimate proof of God's existence?

caution, there are a couple of gross scenes.

that was the most beautiful i've seen/watched in a long time, thank you! I loved all the golden ratio references