[Guest]

It seems there is a lot of controversy over this topic on Brainden.... Understandable... Well I just mean spiritual as in God but also as in ghosts and things. What is your opinion?

[Guest]

I believe in a higher power, ghosts(misguided spirits), reincarnation...also 'mythical' creatures...*rides away on pet dragon*...

[Guest]

This is almost a fusion of 2 threads already posted here, the religion, and supernatural (not the mafia game) discussions... but here's what I believe:

I do not believe in God.

I do believe in the supernatural; ghosts and reincarnation mostly.

Although the only mythical creature I believe might exist is the Chupacabra

[Guest]

This is almost a fusion of 2 threads already posted here, the religion, and supernatural (not the mafia game) discussions... but here's what I believe:

I do not believe in God.

I do believe in the supernatural; ghosts and reincarnation mostly.

Although the only mythical creature I believe might exist is the Chupacabra

*Atlantis' dragon eats Rain's Chupacabra*

sorry

[unreality]

same as RainThinker. Ixnay on all the spirits, ghosts, banshees, leprechauns, unicorns, gods and other mythical creatures ;D

[Guest]

I believe in a higher power, ghosts(misguided spirits), reincarnation...also 'mythical' creatures...*rides away on pet dragon*...

Reincarnation? As another human being or as anything? You would really have to do alot of explaining for me to understand that one.

[Guest]

If the supernatural is obvious... Why not God?

[Guest]

f of God - Intelligent Design

What would constitute objective proof of God? Well, consider the following self-evident and universally recognized truth: Concept and design necessitate an intelligent designer. The presence of intelligent design proves the existence of an intelligent designer. It's simply cause and effect. In our search for proof of God's existence, we could examine the various claims of supernatural occurrences, determine whether or not these are legitimate experiences, and build a case for the existence of the supernatural, which would be a step towards identifying a supernatural Creator God. Or we can just apply what we already know and search for signs of intelligent design within creation itself.

We know that design necessitates a designer. In fact, in accordance with this fundamental axiom, design detection methodology is a prerequisite in many fields of human endeavor, including archaeology, anthropology, forensics, criminal jurisprudence, copyright law, patent law, reverse engineering, crypto analysis, random number generation, and SETI. And how do we recognize intelligent design? In general, we find "specified complexity" to be a reliable indicator of the presence of intelligent design. Chance can explain complexity alone but not specification -- a random sequence of letters is complex but not specified (it's meaningless). A Shakespearean sonnet is both complex and specified (it's meaningful). We can't have a Shakespearean sonnet without Shakespeare. (William A. Dembski, The Design Inference: Eliminating Chance through Small Probabilities, 1998.)

Proof of God - Nature

So where's the proof of God's existence? In accordance with our familiar axiom and in light of the tremendous advances we've made in molecular biology, biochemistry, genetics and information theory, the proof of God is all around us!

Through the microscope, we observe the E. coli bacterial flagellum. The bacterial flagellum is what propels E. coli bacteria through its microscopic world. It consists of about 40 individual protein parts including a stator, rotor, drive-shaft, U-joint, and propeller. It's a microscopic outboard motor! The individual parts come into focus when magnified 50,000 times (using electron micrographs). And even though these microscopic outboard motors run at an incredible 100,000 rpm, they can stop on a microscopic dime. It takes only a quarter turn for them to stop, shift directions and start spinning 100,000 rpm in the opposite direction! The flagellar motor has two gears (forward and reverse), is water-cooled, and is hardwired into a signal transduction (sensory mechanism) so that it receives feedback from its environment. ("Unlocking the Mystery of Life," video documentary by Illustra Media, 2002.)

When we apply the general principles of detecting specified complexity to biologic systems (living creatures), we find it reasonable to infer the presence intelligent design. Take, for example, the bacterial flagellum's stator, rotor, drive-shaft, U-joint, and propeller. It is not convenient that we've given these parts these names - that's truly their function. If you were to find a stator, rotor, drive-shaft, U-joint, or propeller in any vehicle, machine, toy or model, you would recognize them as the product of an intelligent source. No one would expect an outboard motor -- much less one as incredible as the flagellar motor -- to be the product of a chance assemblage of parts. Motors are the product of intelligent design.

Furthermore, the E. coli bacterial flagellum simply could not have evolved gradually over time. The bacterial flagellum is an "irreducibly complex" system. An irreducibly complex system is one composed of multiple parts, all of which are necessary for the system to function. If you remove any one part, the entire system will fail to function. Every individual part is integral. There is absolutely no naturalistic, gradual, evolutionary explanation for the bacterial flagellum. (Michael Behe, Darwin's Black Box, 1996.)

The bacterial flagellum (not to mention the irreducibly complex molecular machines responsible for the flagellum's assembly) is just one example of the specified complexity that pervades the microscopic biological world. Molecular biologist Michael Denton wrote, "Although the tiniest bacterial cells are incredibly small, weighing less than 10-12 grams, each is in effect a veritable micro-miniaturized factory containing thousands of exquisitely designed pieces of intricate molecular machinery, made up altogether of one hundred thousand million atoms, far more complicated than any machinery built by man and absolutely without parallel in the non-living world." (Michael Denton, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, 1986, p. 250.)

Proof of God - His Fingerprints are Everywhere

Where is the proof of God? If we're willing to open our eyes, we'll see the fingerprints of God all around us and all throughout us. Our very existence proves the existence of a Creator God.

Is there any scientific proof of God?

Before we can discuss the existence of scientific proof of God, we need to identify what we mean by proof. Also, to know what type of evidence supporting the existence of God would be considered by science, we also need to know which definition of science applies.

The definition of science has changed within the last century from an overall search for truth to a more limited scope of natural explanations of natural processes. Using the current narrow scope definition, there is not any scientific proof of God. The truth or untruth of this statement is not based upon evidence or lack of evidence, but by definition alone. Even though there is extensive, solid evidence for God’ s existence, none of that evidence would be admissible in the science court of law using the current definition.

Consequently, to know what evidence really supports the existence of God, we need to base our statements on the old classic definition of science to eliminate the disqualification of the evidence. The kind of evidence we need to consider is the same type that would be admissible in a court of law.

The level of proof is different in a criminal court than a civil court. In a civil court the prosecution only needs to prove that the preponderance of evidence tips the scales in their direction. Alternatively, in a criminal court a higher level of proof is required. The prosecutor needs to provide evidence that proves the defendant is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

What types of evidence are admissible in courtrooms? These include direct evidence such as fingerprints, DNA, or eyewitness accounts. Also, circumstantial evidence is normally admissible unless it is abnormally weak. Although circumstantial evidence is indirect, it can be powerful evidence to prove guilt or innocence.

Scientific Proof of God – The Evidence

What evidence exists that could prove the existence or non-existence of God? Does God exist?

First, the non-existence of God cannot be proven. One cannot prove a universal negative. Alternatively, the existence of God is provable.

The concept, design, and intricate details of our world necessitate an intelligent designer.

Both direct and indirect evidence for God’s existence are well known and well documented. Nothing in history is better known or better documented than the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. We even use the year of His birth as the basis for our calendar. He perfectly matched the over 100 unique Messianic prophecies in the Old Testament regarding His birth, life, death, and resurrection. The laws of probability cannot give us a reasonable explanation for either the Messianic predictions or the resurrection, let alone both by the same person.

Jesus’ miracles were witnessed by many and were documented redundantly for additional corroboration. He was seen by at least 500 people after His resurrection. He was seen ascending into heaven. His transfiguration was seen by Peter, James, and John. His wisdom in dealing with many circumstances was astounding. He never promoted Himself or His miracles. C. S. Lewis stated that He couldn’t have just been a good teacher. He was either a liar, lunatic, or Lord. He didn’t even come close to meeting the profile of a liar or lunatic, so He had to be God.

Jesus Christ also supported the truth of the Old Testament and quoted it many times. Consequently, with Jesus Christ, we have an eyewitness to the truth of the Old Testament. This gives credibility to the creation account and God’s interaction with man. The entire Old Testament account is about how God is trying to have a relationship with man while man is separating himself from God by sin. It tells how God is long-suffering and merciful and ultimately how God sent His Son to die for our sins so God could ultimately have a relationship with us.

God’s interaction with man in the Old Testament was often and powerful. Some of the main interactions included Adam, Cain, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, the Israelites, the prophets, and the kings. In addition to Jesus’ testimony to the truth of the Old Testament, ancient manuscripts, archaeology, and internal consistency also testify to its truth. Consequently, much direct evidence including eyewitness accounts and indirect evidence corroborate the existence of God and the truth of the Bible.

Edited March 3, 2009 by CuteSparklezGirl

[Izzy]

Oi, give credit where credit's due. That was clearly copied and pasted from here, meaning you don't understand the concept enough to explain it yourself, and probably just searched Google for a quick explanation, not able to come up with one on your own. I honestly cba to read through all of that, so I'll just go through the first bit.

"Concept and design necessitate an intelligent designer. The presence of intelligent design proves the existence of an intelligent designer."

It does not. At the beginning of the time of the universe, the entropy allotted in that amount of space was incredibly high. Disorder and chaos were at their maximum, obviously the opposite of anything that could be considered 'intelligent' design. As time goes on, and the universe expands, order increases because the entropy, though not remaining constant, is spread out over a much greater area. Essentially, room for order > entropy. Eventually, any system that is constantly increasing will become more ordered as time goes on, and since the universe is at least 15 billion years old, there's been plenty of time for order. This order may seem like 'intelligent design', but really, it's just nature doing its thing.

I don't believe in gods, ghosts, spirits, reincarnation, or any of that stuff.

[Guest]

Oi, give credit where credit's due. That was clearly copied and pasted from here, meaning you don't understand the concept enough to explain it yourself, and probably just searched Google for a quick explanation, not able to come up with one on your own. I honestly cba to read through all of that, so I'll just go through the first bit.

"Concept and design necessitate an intelligent designer. The presence of intelligent design proves the existence of an intelligent designer."

It does not. At the beginning of the time of the universe, the entropy allotted in that amount of space was incredibly high. Disorder and chaos were at their maximum, obviously the opposite of anything that could be considered 'intelligent' design. As time goes on, and the universe expands, order increases because the entropy, though not remaining constant, is spread out over a much greater area. Essentially, room for order > entropy. Eventually, any system that is constantly increasing will become more ordered as time goes on, and since the universe is at least 15 billion years old, there's been plenty of time for order. This order may seem like 'intelligent design', but really, it's just nature doing its thing.

I don't believe in gods, ghosts, spirits, reincarnation, or any of that stuff.

Oh my god... you are right... I went to Google.(feeling guilty) Maybe you are right... You never know.

[unreality]

Argument from Design *sigh*

I have many opinions and rejections to this argument, and I will bring out my own responses to it if you've read this article and still don't see why the Argument from Design is fundamentally flawed

http://skepdic.com/design.html

[Guest]

Looking at this from the stand point of a mediator.

The existence of a "SupernaturalalmightycreatorGod" Cannot be proven or proven false.

Pros For Existence:

The Bible: The story of the "SupernaturalalmightycreatorGod" among the Jews

Form of Evidence: Eyewitness Journal accounts.

Because of the extreme age of the text, there is no one around to verify that this is without a doubt a completely accurate book and not just a myth.

Imprint of a boat in Mt. Ararat

It is disputable that this imprint is merely the basis for the legend and not the end result

Cons For Existence

There is no physical evidence

Lack of evidence does not constitute lack of existance

Evolution vs. Creation

It is still disputable that the "SupernaturalalmightycreatorGod" may have made things according to scientific laws

In other words, the fact that it exists as an idea, and that there is no physical evidence that could prove that he does not exist, and no physical evidence that he does exist, means that this "SupernaturalalmightycreatorGod" is beyond the realm of science.

In less words, the only way to find out is to kill yourself, and then you still only have a 50% chance of knowing.

[Guest]

f of God - Intelligent Design

I wish there was a forehead slapping smilie. Did you even read all of this? Do you understand it? I believe in God, but the important thing is not to run out unequiped and expect to get anywhere.

Seek first to understand.

First, seek to understand your own beliefs. Be willing to make changes where changes are due. I have grown up my entire life in church and I can tell you that there is alot of crap that gets thrown in during Sunday school. Not all of it is truth. I had to go through a horrible process of deconstruction in order to get to the core of what I believed, after discarding the excess junk. But dont let that discourage you. Truth can be found. I believe that God exists, but alot of things that they say in church are not true. Read your bible, and not just what you are told to read. Test the information. Read online analysis of particular passages and how various passages relate to each other. Look up word definitions and root words. Look up literal translations. Greek and Hebrew do not always translate as cleanly as the NIV and NKJV make it look. Contemplate your views often. Do not let any belief go untested. You must have a firm foundation, and you can not build a firm foundation with crap.

Seek to understand others. One of the best things I did was I looked up Atheist Sites. Look at their views and the comments that they have. Seek to understand their arguments. I guarentee you that many Atheists know the Bible better than you do. Seek to know it better than them. You may not always have a response right away, that is ok. It is good to allow some of their ideas into your mind. They are not stupid and their believe in the non-existence of God is not without reason. It is sad that many christians' beliefs in God are without reason and they expect others to be the same way.

Apologetics is also an intersting topic to look up. But do not try to argue something that you do not fully understand. It is good to see that you are interested, and I encourage you to keep trying.

[Guest]

Reincarnation? As another human being or as anything? You would really have to do alot of explaining for me to understand that one.

what U R reincarnated as will depend upon how U act and what U learn in this life...if U R good and U learn what U need 2, U will get a good life the next time around...if not U might have it a bit harder...any more questions?...

[Izzy]

IDNE, you have to be my favorite theist alive. I salute you.

[Guest]

If the supernatural is obvious... Why not God?

I believe there might have been a man named 'Jesus'...he might have had abilities that, at the time, appeared 'magical'...but I also believe that he wuz a human, possibly even had a wife and kids, and that he died...maybe this 'rebirth' they keep talking about was him being reincarnated?...I'm also fairly sure he wuz not a light skinned, blue eyed guy like so many pictures depict...he wuz probably a very dark skinned man with brown eyes...fits that part of the world...

[Guest]

I wish there was a forehead slapping smilie. Did you even read all of this? Do you understand it? I believe in God, but the important thing is not to run out unequiped and expect to get anywhere.

Seek first to understand.

First, seek to understand your own beliefs. Be willing to make changes where changes are due. I have grown up my entire life in church and I can tell you that there is alot of crap that gets thrown in during Sunday school. Not all of it is truth. I had to go through a horrible process of deconstruction in order to get to the core of what I believed, after discarding the excess junk. But dont let that discourage you. Truth can be found. I believe that God exists, but alot of things that they say in church are not true. Read your bible, and not just what you are told to read. Test the information. Read online analysis of particular passages and how various passages relate to each other. Look up word definitions and root words. Look up literal translations. Greek and Hebrew do not always translate as cleanly as the NIV and NKJV make it look. Contemplate your views often. Do not let any belief go untested. You must have a firm foundation, and you can not build a firm foundation with crap.

Seek to understand others. One of the best things I did was I looked up Atheist Sites. Look at their views and the comments that they have. Seek to understand their arguments. I guarentee you that many Atheists know the Bible better than you do. Seek to know it better than them. You may not always have a response right away, that is ok. It is good to allow some of their ideas into your mind. They are not stupid and their believe in the non-existence of God is not without reason. It is sad that many christians' beliefs in God are without reason and they expect others to be the same way.

Apologetics is also an intersting topic to look up. But do not try to argue something that you do not fully understand. It is good to see that you are interested, and I encourage you to keep trying.

I agree with U about church...I will subscribe 2 an organized religion only if and when they admit that there are parts of each and every religion that are based in fact and that their religion is not the 'correct' one or the 'best' one...

[Guest]

I wish there was a forehead slapping smilie. Did you even read all of this? Do you understand it? I believe in God, but the important thing is not to run out unequiped and expect to get anywhere.

Seek first to understand.

First, seek to understand your own beliefs. Be willing to make changes where changes are due. I have grown up my entire life in church and I can tell you that there is alot of crap that gets thrown in during Sunday school. Not all of it is truth. I had to go through a horrible process of deconstruction in order to get to the core of what I believed, after discarding the excess junk. But dont let that discourage you. Truth can be found. I believe that God exists, but alot of things that they say in church are not true. Read your bible, and not just what you are told to read. Test the information. Read online analysis of particular passages and how various passages relate to each other. Look up word definitions and root words. Look up literal translations. Greek and Hebrew do not always translate as cleanly as the NIV and NKJV make it look. Contemplate your views often. Do not let any belief go untested. You must have a firm foundation, and you can not build a firm foundation with crap.

Seek to understand others. One of the best things I did was I looked up Atheist Sites. Look at their views and the comments that they have. Seek to understand their arguments. I guarentee you that many Atheists know the Bible better than you do. Seek to know it better than them. You may not always have a response right away, that is ok. It is good to allow some of their ideas into your mind. They are not stupid and their believe in the non-existence of God is not without reason. It is sad that many christians' beliefs in God are without reason and they expect others to be the same way.

Apologetics is also an intersting topic to look up. But do not try to argue something that you do not fully understand. It is good to see that you are interested, and I encourage you to keep trying.

Oh my Gosh! I have to say... I am NOT offended in the least... I am so grateful to you. I almost cried when I read it. This just goes to prove I have been away from brainden too long. You guys are such good people. I love your advice. I put it into Word, printed it out and taped it to my bedroom wall. I am not even kidding. Thank You.

[Guest]

Oh my Gosh! I have to say... I am NOT offended in the least... I am so grateful to you. I almost cried when I read it. This just goes to prove I have been away from brainden too long. You guys are such good people. I love your advice. I put it into Word, printed it out and taped it to my bedroom wall. I am not even kidding. Thank You.

R we converting U?...jk...

[Guest]

LOL.... I am already a theist but I don't really know my own faith.

[Guest]

I don't kno what I am...except against organized religion...see post #17...I think...

Athiest...Pegan...Christian...Jewish...Muslim...these are all just lables 2 put us in2 groups...

[Guest]

I see your point but the labels do serve a purpose.

[Izzy]

Umm, in general, Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc. want to be well defined from each other. ;P

[Guest]

btw Izzy, I had a really nice pm I tried to send you but it wouldn't let me beacause it said your inbox was full. I know this is off subject, but... yeah!

[Guest]

Umm, in general, Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc. want to be well defined from each other. ;P

do they really want 2 B...or have they been 'trained' to want to B...

[Izzy]

btw Izzy, I had a really nice pm I tried to send you but it wouldn't let me beacause it said your inbox was full. I know this is off subject, but... yeah!

Heh, sorry. Been doing a bunch of chatting with people vias PMs today. Inbox cleared.

*edit* Haha, message received. Awwww.

Edited March 4, 2009 by Izzy