[plasmid]

I'm curious about non-theist opinions on this matter, but theists are of course invited to participate and provide illumination as well. The almost universal development of religion in some form or other across many different cultures seems to indicate that there is a deep underlying drive to have some sort of religious experience which is embedded in many (if not to some degree all) humans. I doubt that it's purely due to primitive attempts to understand the universe before the development of science -- even with modern science and state endorsement of atheism, the Soviet Union still had plenty of believers. If religion as we know it were wiped from the face of the earth, it seems likely that it would simply resprout in some new form.

If this is the case (which is certainly open to argument) then would it not be in our best interest to fill this illogical but evident need with a religion that is as benign and perhaps even beneficial as possible? Most mainstream religions at least preach to love thy neighbor and straighten up and fly right and all that, whether or not it's actually put into practice. Christianity may stand to be improved regarding its opposition to stem cell research and discrimination against homosexuals to name a few issues. However, it was previously opposed to a non-geocentric solar system and abolition of slavery (in areas where it was profitable) and has since mended its ways, not without cost in the meantime, but the point is that it's adaptable.

Is it better to have such a mainstream religion fill the void of the masses who apparently can't do without it, or attempt to eliminate all but reason and leave open the chance for something much more uncontrolled and potentially malignant to take root in the open void (militant jihadists, or another Jonestown)? If something must fill the void but not any currently existing religion, would it be possible to design something better, bearing in mind that you have control only over the text of the holy doctrine but not people's interpretation and implementation of it, and that it must have enough of this intangible spiritualistic property that people crave in order to persist?

And the ultimate question: could you craft a doctrine to fill this need in such a way that its propagation would have an overall positive effect on humanity, and be so convinced in its potential that you would put forth whatever effort and resources were required to make it a reality? I have no intention of converting any nonbelievers into messiahs, I'm just curious what people think. Seeing as how we're on BrainDen, you can consider this a practical riddle.

Edited April 20, 2009 by plasmid

[unreality]

I like Essence in there, it's not a big tag line but it's intriguing. Alternatively we should go with "id", though we may have to change the character of the religion just a bit...

I got stopped by the police while driving home the other night. The policeman walked up to the car window and said "I need to see your id please"

I said "Id? Don't you mean you want to see my I.D.?"

"Don't get smart with me sonny, just show me your id."

So I bit his nose off and buggered him over the hood, crying "DADDY! DADDY!"

Whoa there! If that's what Phronism looks like, you can count me out. We seriously need to distance ourselves from all that new age hippy nonsense. That's a matter of image. We've got to come across as being more slick, well-thought out, and reality-based.

Like I said, I didn't read any of it, just glanced at the URL and the first couple sentences. I agree we want to distance ourselves from "hippyism" despite having quite a similar message... I think the important elements of that are expressed (with more thought) in Phronism in a more modernized package and our own spins and twists

Weddings and funerals:

My feeling is that we should create lots of freedom to do what you want. Weddings is an interesting one because other religions consider marriage to be a "holy state" (particularly endorsed by the religion). I'm not sure if we should do that. Maybe our take on it should be that it is a binding commitment made explicitly for reasons of personal security and security of existing or future children. If we encourage people to consider the reasoning behind it, it might encourage them to give it the proper consideration and either not get married, or stay together if you do.

In the UK if you have a non-religious wedding you're not allowed to have music with any kind of a religious element in it. Since the Essence is within everything and particularly evident in all forms of artistic expression, I think we should consider all music to be religious for our purposes so people outside of Phronism may no longer have any music at their weddings.

haha, ooh the cruelty

anyway, I'm still liking what I said about weddings and funerals. I think we need to instill that mystic sense of religious connection and tie it in with the wedding with also the usual Phronist prudence. That is, we should stress rational thought with regards to whether to get married, but the actual ceremony and process and whole stigma is as it is now, not just because we want to sync seamlessly with existing religions to gain members but also because the whole method seems to work pretty well (especially if we infuse some more idealisms about not getting divorced and making sure you love each other, etc)

and octopuppy what do you think about the "mountain cremation ceremony" idea for funerals?

What's our stance on weddings and funerals? I think we definitely have to retain weddings as they pretty much are today. All aspects being the same except the part at church... for that part, they can meet in a phronistery (of any denomination, they don't have to belong to it, and more importantly the wedding isn't tied to any single denomination, no denomination is mentioned in any wedding records, it's a Phronism-wide thing) and the Phronite (do we have a word for priest? lol) will say some stuff about how the "Essence has coiled around them, wrapping them in an unimaginable unity, a bond of love, connection and mutual journey", etc, and maybe less ritualistic words (more of a general speech about them and the Essence) but rather one official sentence which sort of legally and phronistically wraps up the deal (something like "I hereby witness your eternal Connection in the golden streams of the Essence" or something like that)... then everyone claps and they kiss and have a huge reception and then go on a honeymoon (aka wedding)

as for funerals... maybe a little less "medieval" with all darkness and candles and open casket... I think we should promote cremation, but not in a stuffy weird funeral home, but on a mountaintop or something cool like that, and watch the ashes float into the wind and rejoin the world.

[Guest]

OK.

First, we need to co-opt essence.org or ignore it all together. While the overall message and goal may be similar, crystals and what-not are very much out of the realm of The Actual, if you ask me. I suppose they could be their own denomination, though.

As for weddings, I'd much prefer to stay out of the whole marriage arena. Let them be legal civil contracts as they should be. I don't believe any religion has any business "sanctioning" a relationship of any kind. That's just me though, and there's the revenue stream to think about.

Rituals like weddings and funerals, as long as they are stressed as symbolic ways to express emotion and respect, versus a "holy rite", I can be ok with. Good old fashioned wakes make sense (with a little modification) within our context, sort of a ceremony to remember one's Legacy in a positive and happy manner.

Now for the big news...

First, a little back story. We've chosen to not have Lyra vaccinated for a lot of really good medical reasons. My wife and I are informed, responsible healthcare consumers and we have made a choice based on the information available.

The government doesn't accept intelligent decisions, however. To get Lyra insured in my post-job economy, one of the requirements is current vaccination, which we do not want. The only acceptable "reason" (ironic word there) is to claim that it is against your religion...

Therefore, by the end of this process, Phronism will officially be the religion of record for baby Lyra. She's thrilled, and will be happy to be your poster child.

[Guest]

and octopuppy what do you think about the "mountain cremation ceremony" idea for funerals?

It's nice but not really my bag, I'd rather be buried or eaten (might have a BBQ at my funeral). Choice is what matters I think, and we should encourage the celebration and recognition of life rather than moping about or using any silly phrases like "sure and certain hope".

I agree with Grayven that it's not the business of religions to sanction relationships. I think the role of phronism should be one of guidance, recognising the benefits of long term commitment but also encouraging people to think twice and recognise a commitment for what it is (more than just a romantic gesture).

We'll have to get this religion up and preaching quick if Grayven's going to be using it for insurance purposes! We'll have to include a commandment to say "thou shalt be an informed responsible healthcare consumer and if so, thou must make thine own decisions about vaccinations". I feel for you, though I do think anti-vaccination campaigns are disproportionate scaremongering, and lose sight of the massive benefits of vaccination. Mind you I did pay to get separate vaccinations for my boy rather than the cocktails they like to give. That's parenthood for you, full of agonising decisions, you live with the consequences and there's no way to be really informed. At least the health worries get less after the 1st year.

[Guest]

We'll have to get this religion up and preaching quick if Grayven's going to be using it for insurance purposes! We'll have to include a commandment to say "thou shalt be an informed responsible healthcare consumer and if so, thou must make thine own decisions about vaccinations". I feel for you, though I do think anti-vaccination campaigns are disproportionate scaremongering, and lose sight of the massive benefits of vaccination. Mind you I did pay to get separate vaccinations for my boy rather than the cocktails they like to give. That's parenthood for you, full of agonising decisions, you live with the consequences and there's no way to be really informed. At least the health worries get less after the 1st year.

We'll leave the vaccination discussion for another topic. As for up and preaching, we've got a good 20 years, at least, before Lyra will be prepared to become the spiritual leader of the planet. We've got time.

Seriously though, I hope I didn't overstep any bounds by forcing our little idea into the public realm. I maybe should have considered the opinions of those of you doing the real work with this project. Gah! What have I done?!

[unreality]

I don't mind at all, I think it's awesome if you actually are, honest to Essence, claiming that Lyra is a Phronist. Does the government need some kind of documentation showing how your religion is against this or do they just take it? I thought there was supposed to be separation of church and state

edit: btw the name Lyra is awesome. It's pronounced "lie - ruh", right? Me and my friends always got in arguments over how to pronounce the Lyra character from His Dark Materials ;D

Edited June 26, 2009 by unreality

[Guest]

I don't mind at all, I think it's awesome if you actually are, honest to Essence, claiming that Lyra is a Phronist. Does the government need some kind of documentation showing how your religion is against this or do they just take it? I thought there was supposed to be separation of church and state

edit: btw the name Lyra is awesome. It's pronounced "lie - ruh", right? Me and my friends always got in arguments over how to pronounce the Lyra character from His Dark Materials ;D

They pronounce it like you do in the movie. That was my first exposure to it.

It's not official yet, of course. I'm not 100% positive they'll need to put down which religion or if just saying it's against it is enough. I'm hoping for the former, of course.

[plasmid]

I'm finally back for a moment; even orientation for my new job has been busy, and it looks like I'll be nearly out of commission as far as BrainDen starting on Sunday.

For slogans, while I have my own personal preferences, I'm afraid that I really don't know what would best strike a chord with our target audience. But I'll still list a few that I like.

Phronism is the religion your conscience is already practicing. or Phronism: what the wise have been doing all along.

THINK. ACT. LIVE.

Phronism: Your (soul or organ) knows it's right.

Religion and science have signed a truce.

Actions speak louder than sermons.

And it reminds me of a quote (questionably) attributed to Einstein: Science without faith is lame. Faith without science is blind.

As for weddings and funerals, I just listed them as being examples of the types of stuff that the denoms might codify their own procedures for, without meaning to imply that they would be mandatory. I would imagine they'd be quite useful when getting initial converts coming out of classical religions who consider that kind of stuff to be part of religion's job. Beyond that though, they might have actual practical utility. I had always been taught that big elaborate weddings that the bride and groom have to plan for themselves are useful screening tests: Any couple that can't survive the inevitable stress and arguments and perceived crises involved in planning a wedding are not going to survive a marriage. I also admire some cultures' tradition of having the groom pay for the wedding: if he can't afford a wedding, then he probably can't afford a family. Funerals I'm less sure about. Perhaps it's an overall psychological plus, perhaps not, perhaps there are better ways of doing it (e.g. for families spread out across the country: having more distant relatives occasionally meet the immediate family in a more staggered fashion over time so there's not just a single ceremony after which everyone splits?). If not having any funerals at all is the best way to go, then that's the way the denoms can go, but I suspect that won't be the case.

[unreality]

i just tried phronism.mil, also blank You know, just in case

[Guest]

Religion and science have signed a truce.

Actions speak louder than sermons.

Those are both just dandy!

I think I may have found our symbol.

It's a mathematical

or this version

It's double infinity, it's mathy and sciency at the same time. It also has a quasi-cross feel without really being one.

[Guest]

Ooh, I like that. I'll have to try to think up a neat formula for that in complex number space. That would symbolize the infinity of the real (Actual) unified with the infinity of the imaginary (Potential).

[Guest]

Those are both just dandy!

I think I may have found our symbol.

It's double infinity, it's mathy and sciency at the same time. It also has a quasi-cross feel without really being one.

Wow! I really like it. Did Lyra draw that? ;D

[Guest]

Wow! I really like it. Did Lyra draw that? ;D

Random google search for infinity symbols.... er um.... yep, she did!

It's not found on any symbol database that I can find so far. It's not exactly unique, but it's definitely along the lines we are looking for. It can represent Samarakand as a crossroads of sorts. I like the symmetry, it's curvy and sexy. Yeppers, it's a winner.

Edited June 27, 2009 by Grayven

[Guest]

I know we all hate it when someone dredges up an "ancient" thread, especially one that seems to only be cared about by a half dozen or so Den-izens.

However, I happened to run into an article -- more like it ran into me, as it was assigned reading for a "Critical Thinking" course I am taking*-- an article that I thought had significant implications on our little Phronism experiment. This article; or interview transcript, rather; is about Howard Gardner, Professor of Education at Harvard University (or at least as of 1997, when the article was written.) He expresses many ideas about education that parallel, mirror, or compliment some of the major themes of Phronism, and which may be of benefit. His educational model could certainly be easily adapted to expose the world to Phronism. The timeline should be just about right, as well.

While I do not have time yet to participate in this discussion as I might like, I thought I should make the few of you who might still be interested aware of this outstanding interview. That is, of course, if you haven't already.

Until next time,

Grayven

Oh, and if you're new to this thread, I highly recommend you read it from the beginning... see you somewhere around the 2012 Olympics.

edit: I realized I forgot to add the link!

Edited March 18, 2010 by Grayven

[Guest]

This topic is a treasure trove of practical modern thought on 'religion'. There is a grown-up approach to spiritual practice that has nothing to do with supernatural phenomena or mystical hocus-pocus. This is the core of Phronism.

Back in this thread I proposed to establish the 'First Phronist Foregathering' as a testbed for a modern, useful 'religion'. As of April 5, this experiment went public on Facebook. It is called the 'Communion of Dalle'. Dalle is a 'figurehead' deity, representative of the Essence, but intentionally given a 'face' and a 'voice' simply because we humans are social beings who identify and categorize our experiences with faces, names, conversations and other social experiences.

Please check out the 'Commmunion of Dalle', become a fan, and join the conversation. The goal is not only your personal growth, but a chance to participate in the unending work of evolving our existence to make the future better and more welcoming than our present reality.

The Communion of Dalle on Facebook

Edited April 14, 2010 by seeksit

[Guest]

Back in this thread I proposed to establish the 'First Phronist Foregathering' as a testbed for a modern, useful 'religion'. As of April 5, this experiment went public on Facebook. It is called the 'Communion of Dalle'. Dalle is a 'figurehead' deity, representative of the Essence, but intentionally given a 'face' and a 'voice' simply because we humans are social beings who identify and categorize our experiences with faces, names, conversations and other social experiences.

I don't understand, is this something you set up? It seems like a bit of a variant on Phronism, which is cool, denoms and all that, though I'm not sure about the choice of symbol. For some reason it puts me in mind of a woman trying to light a fart...

[Guest]

The 'logo' has at least three meanings. The most obvious is the merger of the letters C and D (for Communion of Dalle). The second connects with the imagery you detect: the flame represents the Big Bang issuing from Dalle's womb. The explanation of the third is much more complex: it is a halo symbol and the design of aa physical 'sanctum' that emerges from the fictional tale in which Dalle is introduced.

Glad to get the feedback, and I welcome anyone else's comments as well.

Edited April 16, 2010 by seeksit

[Guest]

rofl, it's actually supposed to look like a butt! I've got to hand it to you there seeksit, it's a whole new direction in religious imagery. And why not? My respect for the Communion of Dalle is growing by the minute.