Atheism discussion

[Guest]

Hey, I've got a question for you all. Let me preface it by saying that I am not trying to set you up or start a debate; I am just genuinely curious to know what you think. I admit that I haven't read all of the Religious Debate or of this thread, so if this has been covered before you can just point me there.

So, what I'd like to know is...Do you believe that humans (other animals aside for now) have a soul (or a spirit) and if so, how has this developed and when does it begin to manifest itself in a human being?

Thanks.

[Guest]

Hey, I've got a question for you all. Let me preface it by saying that I am not trying to set you up or start a debate; I am just genuinely curious to know what you think. I admit that I haven't read all of the Religious Debate or of this thread, so if this has been covered before you can just point me there.

So, what I'd like to know is...Do you believe that humans (other animals aside for now) have a soul (or a spirit) and if so, how has this developed and when does it begin to manifest itself in a human being?

Thanks.

I don't necessarily know that such a thing as a "soul" or "spirit" exists. I think that everyone and everything has its own energy fields, which I supposed one could attribute to be a soul or spirit. I also think that these energy fields are what draw us to or push us away from others, much like a magnet. The concept of 'soul mates' falls into this too. It's more so a strong connection between the two fields that registers positively between two individuals. Answering the next question of manifestation, seeing as how I dont actually think a 'soul' exists in the aspect that I think you think of it as, there is no manifestation. However on the topic of energy fields when a child is in the womb it is protected by the mother and encased in her energy field, when the child is born then then it obtains its own individual field. This is not to say, however, that the child is not a human until it gains its own personal field.

[Guest]

Im not really sure, but I think that people have a spirit because otherwise how could we have consious thought? I dont know when we start to think though, if we knew that it would be easier to decide whether abortion should be legal.

[unreality]

violent pedestrian: welcome And there is no such thing as a soul, a soul isn't needed for conscious thought. Dogs are conscious, elephants are conscious. Chimpanzees are conscious. Dolphins are conscious. In fact probably all mammals and the majority of birds, and a lot of other animals, have conscious thought. Chimpanzees are essentially human, by the way.

If you want more of the 'why', our brain first started evolving larger and larger hundreds of thousands of years ago, when we first started eating meat. Brains require lots of energy, and you can't get that from nuts and berries. As soon as our diet began to shift to the carnivorous side, our brain began to get more vast and complex, connected in more and more places. It's not necessarily how big the brain is, but how much of it is useable, and what the various areas connect to in the body and in other parts of the brain, etc. If you're looking for consciousness, the hypothalamus itself controls almost all of our emotions. A little bit to the side are areas that release chemicals for sexual desire, and in another part of the brain (yes a different area than lust ), various neurotransmitters (which are like little chemicals released across the synapse between two neurons) gives us the feeling of love/beauty/attachment, etc, which we need to form strong ties and pass along our genetics [evolutionarily-speaking], etc. The more I learn about the brain in Psychology class, for example, the more it becomes impossible to separate the concept of "soul" from the brain itself. Emotions (happiness, anger, love, jealousy, and more - every single one), feelings of success and failure, memories, instincts, self-awareness, sensation/perception, complex thought and decision-making analysis, stimulus processing, body control, kinesthesia, pain, etc - all of these things are proven to be part of the brain and well known how they work, and can be affected by stimulating different areas.

Now imagine a soul, some separate entity, and remove the soul from the brain. What do you have now? What is the soul? No emotions, no memory, no instincts, no language ability, no creativity, no self-awareness, no pain, no love - it cannot be any of those, because those are properties of the brain. What then can the soul possibly represent?

I just found a good article, however I've only read the first two paragraphs so far, it seems good though so far. Sorry if it's not

http://www.peterrussell.com/SCG/EoC.php

[Guest]

there we go, that's what i was attempting to explain...sorta... minus my addition of energy and explaining connections between people

[Guest]

Wow. I wont pretend I understood all of that.

Good arguament, but I still think we have some sort of spirit or soul- or something else other than our physical body, anyway. I think animals have it too...but, maybe not plants.

[unreality]

Hmm... so what abilities does the soul have? What factors does it contribute that the brain doesn't have? What exactly is it made up of? How does it work? Where does it come from? What happens when our biological body dies? What about before we are born? What evidence or support do you have, or is it just speculation/theory? Do you believe in some sort of god? Sorry if I sound pestering, I'm just curious about your views

there we go, that's what i was attempting to explain...sorta... minus my addition of energy and explaining connections between people

Connections between people don't need explanations Just because the word(s) "soul mates" exist doesn't mean we have to take it literally. Connections, love, etc, come down to basic concepts evolved hundreds of thousands of years ago, if not millions

But as for "energy field", I'm not quite sure what you mean. Clearly we affect the world around us with our matter, which is also energy, but I don't think that's what you mean. Do you mean there's some sort of other, not-yet-defined "energy" that surrounds living things? If so, where does it come from and why is it there and such? (is it like Dust from His Dark Materials? ) I don't believe in "psychic" hocus-pocus, so this is gonna need a lot of justification ;D

[Guest]

Connections between people don't need explanations Just because the word(s) "soul mates" exist doesn't mean we have to take it literally. Connections, love, etc, come down to basic concepts evolved hundreds of thousands of years ago, if not millions

I believe in love about as much as you believe in God But that's just me.

But as for "energy field", I'm not quite sure what you mean. Clearly we affect the world around us with our matter, which is also energy, but I don't think that's what you mean. Do you mean there's some sort of other, not-yet-defined "energy" that surrounds living things? If so, where does it come from and why is it there and such? (is it like Dust from His Dark Materials? ) I don't believe in "psychic" hocus-pocus, so this is gonna need a lot of justification ;D

I don't necessarily have a lot of justification for this, and is a very looked over topic or one that is dismissed altogether. I'm not meaning it in a psychic way either. Yeah definitely not one of those, 'Back off you I'll energy-blast you things' that's just ridiculous. But, in my mind it is yet to be defined. I do think it's related to the electricity that is produced by our bodies, but to what extent, no clue.

[Guest]

Hmm... so what abilities does the soul have? What factors does it contribute that the brain doesn't have? What exactly is it made up of? How does it work? Where does it come from? What happens when our biological body dies? What about before we are born? What evidence or support do you have, or is it just speculation/theory? Do you believe in some sort of god? Sorry if I sound pestering, I'm just curious about your views

Well, I cant answer all those questions cos I havent learnt much about the way the brain works yet...okay actually I cant answer many of them..I dont really have any evidence, its just what i believe. I dont really believe in God though. I go to a christian school and I was a christian when I started, but, oddly enough, its actually turned me non-christian.

[Guest]

Well, I cant answer all those questions cos I havent learnt much about the way the brain works yet...okay actually I cant answer many of them..I dont really have any evidence, its just what i believe. I dont really believe in God though. I go to a christian school and I was a christian when I started, but, oddly enough, its actually turned me non-christian.

I can understand where you're coming for on this a bit. I was brought up christian my whole life. then I took a class on mythology and realized its all the same.

[Guest]

I know. The weirdest thing is, I would probably still be christian if I hadnt gone to my school. But then I learnt all the things christians are meant to believe, and realised I definitely dont agree with most of them.

[Guest]

I know. The weirdest thing is, I would probably still be christian if I hadnt gone to my school. But then I learnt all the things christians are meant to believe, and realised I definitely dont agree with most of them.

I think the only thing that i really thing most established religions have to offer is a good guidelines for how to behave, like repsect parents, dont kill, steal, etc. but im sorry i find nothing wrong with some of the other things that are considered to be condemnable (premarital sex, looking at the unspeakable on the internet or magazines , cussing, etc) i think once you get past the basic manner and social norms, then it's all up to you, we should nt be forced to be 'pure' our whole lives. as I told my mother once....

"Hear no evil, See no evil, Speak no evil....have no fun "

[Guest]

Hey, I've got a question for you all. Let me preface it by saying that I am not trying to set you up or start a debate; I am just genuinely curious to know what you think. I admit that I haven't read all of the Religious Debate or of this thread, so if this has been covered before you can just point me there.

So, what I'd like to know is...Do you believe that humans (other animals aside for now) have a soul (or a spirit) and if so, how has this developed and when does it begin to manifest itself in a human being?

Good question puzzlegirl,and an old one.

Short answer: No. Not if by "soul" you mean something extra besides the physical stuff we know we have, a separate spirit thingy.

Longer answer: unreality covered it pretty darn well (perhaps I should have kept going with those psychology papers after all Only took the one paper, but I had my hands full with the two degrees I was doing ) But I will add my 10cents worth (New Zealand scrapped the 1, 2 and 5 cent pieces a while ago ).

Basically, what is the soul but that which (as I have just been discussing it elsewhere) Plato defined as three distinct parts (or separate "souls" in unison) :

1. Rational soul (mind or intellect)

2. Spirited soul (will or volition)

3. Appetitive soul (emotion or desire)?

What are those besides a part of the human (leaving others aside for the moment) mind?

And what is the mind but a set of emergent properties of the Brain?

The philosophy of Functionalism is what I most closely subscribe to here. This is basically Mind/Body Identity, which contrary to Dualism says that the mind/soul is the brain, not an immaterial thingy that somehow interacts with it. But goes a step further and suggests that what we call our "Mind/Soul" is a Noun-type label (as if it was a thing in its own right) for the functions of the brain; the neural activity and so on.

That is why physical changes, most notably injuries or defects, to the brain affect ones personality, emotional states, memories as well as our motor and sensory functions.

One interesting one is that some people think they can see fine when they are in fact blind! And there are many many more.

I myself suffer from a mild form of depression which manifests in almost uncontrollable rage, due to chemical imbalances in the brain.

Once (such as in Rene Descartes time) it was at least somewhat reasonable to assume that the mind was something distinct from the body (Dualism). Because we knew next to nothing about it. The electrical work of the brain for instance was unknown (hard to find that when you are only allowed to work on dead bodies - actually that was illegal for a long while as well, plus our understanding of electricity being in its infancy) It was thought to be all hydraulics of some kind. But in the past few decades (centuries even) much more has been learned. And except for the weak argument that it could still be separate despite all appearances to the contrary it is really no longer an at all plausible hypothesis.

The only reason the idea persists is that the work of Descartes has had a rather profound influence on our history, and the notion of dualism is tied up in that. Plus it is a remarkably pleasing notion to the holders of those religions that propose the idea of immortal souls. In the face of the obvious fact that our bodies just die and go nowhere, one pretty much needs the idea of a separate soul thingy to keep the idea alive. And the religion of Descartes and the one most of us are most familiar with is one such religion.

Whether you believe that religion or not, this is a pretty poor reason to hold onto the notion of dualism. A better story is needed.

Now, how has it developed? Simply through evolutionary means. There are a number of good books and videos online as well that discuss the evolution of the human brain. And that is what you want; the human brain, as it goes through the stages of reptiles to mammals to primates to us, and it is in us that the most profound features are found. The brain and thus the intellect etc. is our particular species crowning achievement. Others have speed, agility, flight, predatory or ambush abilities etc. For us it is intellect.

This one is quite old (1980) but it's Carl Sagan so I like it.

The Human Brain - Carl Sagan

It's from his "Cosmos" series which everone should watch - It's bloody brilliant!

The thing of note here is that the human mind is not at all a unique special feature of our species alone. As a product of evolution, all other animals (and most other life) has brains and thus minds as well, only to varying degrees; our fellow primates have quite advanced minds, some can even learn sign language etc. as well as complex decision making abilities as well. Other mammals have some of these capacities but in general to a lesser degree. Why? Because they evolved to a certain level as the common ancestor of us humans, primates and all mammals, but at some point we went our separate ways; our minds developed in one way and theirs in others. Perhaps ours advanced a lot, there's less so - because there was no direct, immediate, advantage to it for them to have greater reasoning capacity for example (and/or the energy requirements, which for the brain are huge, did not warrant the development in that area. The variables are many.)

As you may be aware the various species of whale (best known being the dolphin) have remarkably large and complex minds - So it seems that from our split from them, before they went aquatic, their brains evolved separately - something well worth investigating: A separate evolution of the brain, no doubt in a different manner than our own!

When does it begin to manifest itself in a human being? Must say I don't quite understand the question.

At what age? Well from the instant it becomes a brain I would say. There is evidence that we learn to a degree while in the womb. And the brain, depending on how the mind is stimulated, continues to grow new neural pathways at a rapid rate for the three especially, but the first five years of our life. After that time the physical progress slows. Until recently it was thought that no new brain neurons could grow after a certain age, but very recent finding have found this to be false, they still can, only quite slowly.

But in short; a functioning brain is a mind.

[Guest]

Hey, I've got a question for you all. Let me preface it by saying that I am not trying to set you up or start a debate; I am just genuinely curious to know what you think. I admit that I haven't read all of the Religious Debate or of this thread, so if this has been covered before you can just point me there.

So, what I'd like to know is...Do you believe that humans (other animals aside for now) have a soul (or a spirit) and if so, how has this developed and when does it begin to manifest itself in a human being?

Thanks for the question, PG, here's my take on it. To me the interesting question is why human beings believe that they have a soul. Obviously not all do, but it seems to me that we have a natural tendency to believe in something like a soul. Impervious and Violent Pedestrian seem to exhibit this tendency, while not subscribing to religious doctrine. It's easy to see why belief in souls would tend to encourage the growth of religions. But if we don't actually have souls (I don't think we do, more about that later), it remains to be explained why we would believe that we do.

One possible answer is that if we saw ourselves the way we really are (purely physical, limited lifespan, ultimately just worm food) we would lack the incentive to go about life with the sense of purpose that we need in order to win the natural selection game. Maybe some truth in that, but since I see things that way and it doesn't seem to interfere with my sense of purpose I'll have to do better.

I touched on the topic of souls in the "Consciousness and Free Will" topic. What I was suggesting there was that it is related to the concept of responsibility. In order to apply responsibility to others (assigning blame or credit) and ourselves (approaching future decisions with a sense of choice and responsibility), we have to see ourselves and others as discrete entities with free will, whether or not that is actually the case. This gives us the idea of a "self" or "person", which works best if we consider it removed from the physical world and therefore not influenced by physical factors (though of course it is in reality). So we maintain an illusion, just as free will is probably an illusion, because we need it in order to make decisions and maintain our social framework.

This illusion is perhaps reinforced by the fact that we have conscious and subconscious aspects to our minds. We are not aware of the workings of our subconscious and so from a self-awareness point of view, decisions, desires and other feelings can seem to bubble up from nowhere. We could consider these as being the wishes of our "self", while the conscious thought processes that we are aware of are merely the workings of our "brain". Whereas in reality it's all going on in the brain, it's just that the brain's capacity for self-examination is limited (this being a recent development in evolutionary terms).

So being self-aware requires that there be a "self" to be aware of, and putting that "self" in non-physical terms suits our purposes. If such a thing is non-physical, it's a small step and a simple matter of wishful thinking to consider it independent of our mortality (now a "soul"). But the evidence does not support it.

If we look at the way children's minds develop, they have unique characteristics but their personalities are built up over a period of years. So that person does not start out being "themselves". I suspect this is why we remember very little from early babyhood. In order to retain memories I think we need to have started to make sense of our world and our place within it (to be able to place ourselves within a model of the world in our minds). This faculty probably starts to develop in the first year or so. Consequently I would be quite surprised if anyone could remember their own birth.

Greater problems with the self present themselves later in life. Senile dementia is one of several conditions where a person ceases to be "themselves". In other words degeneration within the brain causes a change in personality. Sometimes personality changes can be complete and irreversible. In this case someone is truly no longer the person they once were. Then there is multiple personality syndrome. How many souls do these people have? The only sensible conclusion is that, if there is some constant within a person, it is independent of personality, or awareness. Which makes it so passive as to be utterly irrelevant and does away with our reasons to believe it in the first place.

[Guest]

Thanks for the question, PG, here's my take on it. To me the interesting question is why human beings believe that they have a soul. Obviously not all do, but it seems to me that we have a natural tendency to believe in something like a soul. Impervious and Violent Pedestrian seem to exhibit this tendency, while not subscribing to religious doctrine. It's easy to see why belief in souls would tend to encourage the growth of religions. But if we don't actually have souls (I don't think we do, more about that later), it remains to be explained why we would believe that we do.

Octopuppy, excellent response as always. I do enjoy reading what you have to say. I would like to clear up one point that I think there may have been a slight misconception about. In my response to puzzlegirl's question I said:

I don't necessarily know that such a thing as a "soul" or "spirit" exists. I think that everyone and everything has its own energy fields, which I supposed one could attribute to be a soul or spirit...I dont actually think a 'soul' exists in the aspect that I think you think of it as, there is no manifestation. However on the topic of energy fields when a child is in the womb it is protected by the mother and encased in her energy field, when the child is born then then it obtains its own individual field. This is not to say, however, that the child is not a human until it gains its own personal field.

Perhaps it may have been poor wording on my part, but what I was trying to say is that I don't think a soul exists. What I was doing was trying to find a connotation that would help to compare my ideas with hers. I don't believe energy fields are anything like a soul. It is simply what connects us to everything. In essence, we are all one. there's an infinitecimal amount of molecules tat make everything up, the only thing really separating one form another is the bonds between them and how they are organized. The energy fields that I speak of are more related to that which holds the molecules together.

Furthermore, when talking about 'connections' between energy fields, that's more of a magnet concept. Different polarities attract to one another. The 'soul mate' connection, I believe, is simply our subconscious reacting to the awareness of such event, rather than the "soul" finding its so-called mate.

Hope that clears it up.

[unreality]

Octopuppy, I agree with all that you said (except a minor detail about why we don't remember our childhoods - that's because our brains aren't full hardwired/connected/developed/etc I'm reading an article in Natl Geographic right now about memory, actually)

[Guest]

Octopuppy, I agree with all that you said (except a minor detail about why we don't remember our childhoods - that's because our brains aren't full hardwired/connected/developed/etc I'm reading an article in Natl Geographic right now about memory, actually)

That's sort of what I meant really. If our souls were the part of us which experiences things, we probably wouldn't have to wait for the brain to develop before we can experience life and be ourselves.

[unreality]

Exactly And what about Phineas Gage? or things like Alzheimers and stuff? Do people with Alzheimers suddenly have full minds again after death? How do "souls" store memories? Do your brain's memories "transfer" over to your soul's memories after you die? You can't just make the assertion that a soul exists without some serious back-up and explanation about how the soul is compatible with the brain (which is proven to be the organ of thinking, memory, emotion, personality, logic, analysis, self-awareness, etc)

[Guest]

It's pretty interesting though, that people have this really strong tendency to think that they do have a soul, without really knowing why. I've tried to offer explanations of why that might be but I don't think I've covered it completely.

That strong intuitive feeling creates a compelling circular logic: "I feel sure that I have a soul. If I didn't have a soul, why would I feel that way?"

It seems to me that this is one of the core reasons why religions continue to exist. Letting go of the idea of having a soul is something many people are unprepared to do. But if you don't let go of it you believe in something supernatural. And once you believe in one supernatural thing you may as well go the whole hog and have a god while you're at it.

Would any religious people like to comment on the soul? Presuming that you believe you have one, can you tell me why you believe that?

[unreality]

Well they believe it cuz their religion tells them to, at least that's there conscious reason for it. But I think you're right about how we think we have a soul - we're just arrogant and see ourselves as 'better' than other animals, and a good way to personify our intelligence and 'superiority' is by assigning something like a soul to explain our own behavior

[Guest]

Well they believe it cuz their religion tells them to, at least that's there conscious reason for it.

Well I wouldn't be surprised if someone cited that as a reason to think they have a soul but of course that would be putting the cart before the horse. The belief in souls is part of what the religion is founded on, and as we've seen here, belief in souls exists without religion. I think belief in souls is something innate within humans, intrinsic to our thought processes.

But I think you're right about how we think we have a soul - we're just arrogant and see ourselves as 'better' than other animals, and a good way to personify our intelligence and 'superiority' is by assigning something like a soul to explain our own behavior

I don't think the distinction with animals is innate. Witness a child asking if their pet goes to doggy heaven. The natural assumption is that any sentient being has a soul, but religious doctrine (sometimes) teaches us to make that arrogant distinction with animals.

[Izzy]

Imagine how interesting it would be if a group of kids, old enough to care for themselves but young enough to not know much, were placed on an island. They would be left alone from all biases, and raised never once hearing the word "God".

It'd be amazing to study them and see how they think. If they ever come up with some religion, I'll be surprised. Thoughts?

[Guest]

Imagine how interesting it would be if a group of kids, old enough to care for themselves but young enough to not know much, were placed on an island. They would be left alone from all biases, and raised never once hearing the word "God".

It'd be amazing to study them and see how they think. If they ever come up with some religion, I'll be surprised. Thoughts?

Umm... most kids are exposed to "God" before they can care for themselves. I myself was taken to church multiple times by my parents before I even knew who "God" was.

Edit: Im currently Agnostic

Edited October 22, 2008 by RainThinker

[Guest]

Imagine how interesting it would be if a group of kids, old enough to care for themselves but young enough to not know much, were placed on an island. They would be left alone from all biases, and raised never once hearing the word "God".

It'd be amazing to study them and see how they think. If they ever come up with some religion, I'll be surprised. Thoughts?

If what I'm saying about souls is correct, they would probably tend to believe that they had souls. Provided they had plenty of time to sit around thinking about that kind of thing, I expect they would develop some simple spiritual mythology to surround that. But my guess is that they would not come up with a religion involving gods. The god idea is a popular one, but that meme has been passed down to us in various forms over thousands, if not tens of thousands of years. So I have my doubts about whether it would develop in a single generation. Of course it could. If their spiritual mythology suggested the presence of somebody in charge, you can see how it could happen, and as soon as you start thinking about gods, the idea gets pretty compelling. If they did exist you would want them to favour you, so many people would readily perform whatever rituals they felt might win the gods' favour. It gives an illusion of potentially exercising control over the uncontrollable (like the weather, praying for a good harvest) and that's compelling. The practice of rituals makes the whole idea start to look like there's some mysterious truth in all of it.

Also people like to feel like they have answers to all the questions they cannot answer, and you can see that people often use gods to create easy (though unsubstantiated and ultimately pointless), explanations for anything you want. It's certainly a lot quicker and easier than science, which develops very slowly and relies on the presence of unusually intelligent people. Sooner or later a religion of some sort is bound to pop up. It's just a matter of time, but one generation isn't a long time for this sort of process.

[unreality]

Well said Unless of course I was stranded on the island with 'em to set them straight ;D