[grey cells]

This has been puzzling me for quite a few days . Maybe there's a simple explanation , maybe not . It's your call .

I am sure many of us get exasperated , at some point or other , whenever we break our head over some seemingly trivial problem . But when you stop thinking about that , you give it up entirely , you find that 9 times out of 10(OK , most of the times ) you hit upon the right solution .

For instance , quoting an example from the den , while working on one of Puppy's " Puzzlaholics Homonymous " edition , Dr . Rhythm noted that he was arriving at the right answer , whenever he , SUPPOSEDLY , stopped thinking about the question , i.e , he gave up on it . I am stating this , as this was what started my train of thought .

Now my questions are :

Is it a purely biological phenomenon(such as enzymes and things like that , without a chance of co-incidence?(incidently I don't believe in co-incidences ) )

Or does it involve something else , like Psychology and the sub-conscious mind?

If you have any other theories or ideas , feel free to share it .

I am really curious to know your opinions , fellow Braindenners , so start shooting.

EDIT:Typo .Sorry Puppy , got topic title wrong.

[unreality]

hmmm... I just think that when you overthink something, you feel like you've gone over the basic stuff and you start looking at tiny, insignificant details, hunting down where you haven't looked yet, while the simple truth is that you just overlooked something at the basic level, so you won't be able to solve it until you stop thinking about it and then re-look at the puzzle with a fresh light

[Guest]

I have a different point of view on this. I think that it has to do with the way we all think. I gave up on one of the riddles on BrainDen a few days ago. I think it is because when our brain concentrates on a difficult problem, we exert it until we realize that you can't solve it. You then might want to take a break or something and then when you return and start solving it again. You once again realize that you're not going to do it and that you can't think as much as you did the first time before the break. Then you will decide that the problem has no benefit in solving it. This is supported by the famous 'Aesop's Fables'. Have you heard the story of the fox and the grapes? The fox tries to jump and grab grapes on a fruit vine which is high above the ground and fails. After numerous failiures, he decides that the grapes are sour and walks away. Does anybody think differently?

Edited June 30, 2008 by SillouhetteMind

[unreality]

No... grey cells is talking about when you come back to a problem and then you suddenly solve it

I know what he means (happens to me a lot), and my post was referring to that yours is just if you can't ever solve it, lol

[Guest]

I've thought about this before. I'm not sure about the accuracy but here's what I think. When we try to solve a problem a certain part of our brain is firing, whether to try and reason through it logically or trying to hit on a memory that might trigger a solution. The riddles we answer quickly are ones that we are accustomed to, and therefore our brains "know" exactly what part of the brain to use to solve it, or their solutions relate to something in the "front" of our mind, or in our RAM so to speak. In the case of more difficult puzzles, if we don't know the answer at all we usually know it deep down and try to reason through it and just take a stab.

In some cases however, like those "on the tip our tongue" we know that we have the answer or the means to solve the problem in there somewhere, but our brains aren't sure where to look. So we search and search and search but it's like trying to grab a piece of eggshell that broke in your eggs; as soon as your fingers get around it and you grasp for it, the piece of shell squeezes out to the side and out of reach. But as soon as we stop struggling with ourselves searching for it, our brain can concentrate on figuring out "where to look" for the information instead of trying randomly to find the answer.

Imagine being separated from someone in a grocery store. If you walk around looking for each other you could walk in circles for hours and never meet up, but you'll certainly be distracted from your purpose by the bright colorful packages and what else is on your grocery list. But if you take minute to stop by the registers and wait, it's likely that you'll either see the other person come out of one of the isles, or you can look at the signs and take an educated guess as to which isle they went down and just look down each one from the front of the store.

I know that's all very long winded and the analogies may be strange, but the brain is not an easy thing to explain. That's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

[Guest]

No... grey cells is talking about when you come back to a problem and then you suddenly solve it

I know what he means (happens to me a lot), and my post was referring to that yours is just if you can't ever solve it, lol

Ahhh.....Thanks for clarifying unreality. I get what he means now(it was kind of long!) . Ok then. This is also how our brain thinks. When we are exasperated and tired of solving a problem, there is usually a common reason for that. We get exasperated faster when we know that the answer is simple and it's on the tip of your tounges but you can't find it. This is very common and the reason you suddenly get the answer when you come back to the problem is because of tension. The brain tends to do a less productive job when under hight stress and tension. Something to get your mind away from the topic should help. When you come back to it, your now refreshed mind will be able to think more clearly. This is why you shouldn't build up stress while working on something hard. Keep it at a normal level, and take breaks occasionally.

[Guest]

Got your answer yet, grey cells?

[grey cells]

Yeah , Unreality's right on the topic's theme . Sillouhette , your's might work for a slightly twisted version.

Unreality's reasoning is short and sweet and provides a good logical explanation.

Gondwanaland , your theory sounds interesting , we will see what others have to say.

But now I have got to sleep , it's midnight here . So goodnight guys.

[Guest]

Based on conversations with my husband, who is currently working on his PhD in Psychology, I'd say it's definitely a Psychological processes function.

According to him, the only way your brain actually learns something is after you've forgotten it.

It is heavily based in memory. You have to forget something for it to become a memory. Once you have, then you can recall it. Otherwise, the information stays in the "upper layers" of your mental processes, where it is easily discarded - it's competing with other working memory items such as where you left your car keys and what time you told your wife you'd be home tonight.

The best way to explain is by example: in studying, he reads all the information he needs to learn once or twice, then puts it down. And by puts it down, I mean he completely lets go of any thoughts regarding whatever it was and moves on to some other mental challenge (i.e. a different experiment, class, etc.)

Then in a few days he'll pick the initial study material up again. That is how it commits to memory.

I hope I explained ok. He does much better!

[unreality]

I see what you mean... if you read someone's address and tell the driver where to go, you don't actually memorize the address until you forget about it and then have to actively remember it to put it into your permament memory

however, I'm not sure what memory has to do with the OP The puzzle itself should be easy to remember, I don't think that's the problem- it's the solution, which he doesn't even know yet ;D

[Guest]

I suspect it is more to do with the conscious vs the subconscious thought processes, when you are focussed on a problem it's in your conscious thought and is governed more by the assumed rules you add to the problem, in this stage your creative thought processes are minimized, you are focussing on the problem at hand and you have given the solution boundaries which you perceive to be required in the solution, when you break off from the problem the subconscious takes over and analyzes it more abstractly, looking outside the box so to speak, at this point solutions may be more fothcoming but you aren't thinking about them.

Then, when you resume the concentration on the problem, the subconscious has annotated it with possible solutions which you pick up on and voila, you have the answer you struggled so much to get earlier.

Hence the old addage - 'can't see the forest for the trees' - you are too close / involved in the problem to really have perspective at that time, and overlook things.

[grey cells]

I knew I could depend on you guys for providing an explanation . And that's what I feared , too . All the answers seem to be logically right and that poses a different and difficult situation .

But I personally think the explanation must be a combination of various factors , such as , psychological , biological and of course , the situation and circumstances under which we are solving a particular problem.

I was from the beginning interested in the Sub-conscious mind coming into play , and so I agree with Crash on that .

Batgirl , I understand the concept you are explaining and I think it is called emergent behaviour . Man , or for that matter , any living thing with a memory , will store information as and when it comes across a new experience . It makes use of this information , when it is faced with a similar scenario in the future . But as Unreality has rightly pointed out , the problem you are faced with is most of the times different from the ones , you have encountered in the past i.e. ,they have different answers . The memory plays a role insofar as comparing the present problem with a previous one , and following the same processes , through emergent behaviour.

I know that's all very long winded and the analogies may be strange, but the brain is not an easy thing to explain. That's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

Hey ! you are spot on there . Your explanation is indeed interesting and fits the problem . And it fits the randomness specified in the OP too . You don't get the answer all the time , you get it only once in a while . And I somehow think this has something to do with the subconscious mind.

SM , I don't think this includes stress as a factor . Stress is a part and parcel of our life and moreover , relieving stress must then provide us with answers constantly . But I do agree that a stress-free mind is always a must when we work on a problem .

Unreality , you are right about that part of concentrating on less significant points after giving up on a problem , but that indirectly hints at the involvement of the sub-conscious mind acting , as we have stopped thinking and hence hand over the problem to the sub-conscious mind.

But the discussion's still open . The Sub-conscious mind is only a cog in the wheel . To assemble the entire wheel , I think one has to provide a complete picture and also substantiate it.