Liar Paradox (Eubulid or Epimenides Paradox)

[Guest]

I don't think it is a paradox

It means that the 3 posible conditions are met

some Cretians tell lies some of the time and the truth on other occasions

some tell the truth all of the time

some tell lies all of the time

The Cretan who goes to another part of Greece is lying on that occasion

Incidentally, Crete is part of Greece so could the Cretan have sailed around the island of Crete itself and be telling tis to other Cretans who are also Greeks!

[Guest]

This is a very old riddle which im sure Jonny Ball solved and i still didnt get it, however i do know it was used on me by two plumbers from woolwich who arrived by van one day and returned a week later by moped to say they would finish the job by tuesday honestly guv, im £200 out of pocket and waist deep in water, if anyone can help with my puzzle theres a dingy and a snorkel in it for them.

[Guest]

Liar Paradox (Eubulid or Epimenides Paradox) - Back to the Paradoxes

This is a well known paradox written by the great stoical logician Chrysippos. The poet, grammarian and critic Philetus of Cos was said to have died of exhaustion attempting to resolve it.

1. A Cretan sails to Greece and says to some Greek men who are standing upon the shore: "All Cretans are liars." Did he speak the truth, or did he lie?

2. A week later, the Cretan sailed to Greece again and said: "All Cretans are liars and all I say is the truth." Although the Greeks on the shore weren't aware of what he had said the first time, they were truly puzzled.

If someone says "I always lie", are they telling the truth? Or are they lying?

This is not a paradox. The Cretan is a liar. So his statement "All Cretans are liars." can be considered a lie. This implies the statement "All Cretans are liars." is incorrect - that is some Cretans are not liars - but he is not one of them. His second statement, the statement "All Cretans are liars and all I say is the truth." is also incorrect - the first part is already known to be false and with a connective "and" the whole statement is false no matter whether the second is true or false.

[Guest]

Liar Paradox (Eubulid or Epimenides Paradox) - Back to the Paradoxes

This is a well known paradox written by the great stoical logician Chrysippos. The poet, grammarian and critic Philetus of Cos was said to have died of exhaustion attempting to resolve it.

1. A Cretan sails to Greece and says to some Greek men who are standing upon the shore: "All Cretans are liars." Did he speak the truth, or did he lie?

2. A week later, the Cretan sailed to Greece again and said: "All Cretans are liars and all I say is the truth." Although the Greeks on the shore weren't aware of what he had said the first time, they were truly puzzled.

If someone says "I always lie", are they telling the truth? Or are they lying?

it seems like we have kinda beat this to death but I will throw my two sense in. as regard to the story the answer to the first question depends on your definition of liar if like me you define it as somone who lies but not necessarily all the time then what he said is true and it applies to him which is valid since just because he told the truth this time he can still have told a lie at one time and thus be in agreement with the statment. if on the other hand you define a liar as someone who lies all the time then what he said is a lie which is still valid since if he lied about cretans always lying it doesn't mean that he always lies and as for the creatons just because what he said was a lie doesn't mean that they tell the truth all the time, and therefore leaves it open for discussion as to what they actually do. and as to the finall paradox the previous statement applies basically you cant be a liar all the time and say so because in that one moment he would speak the truth meaning that he doesn't always lie but that doesn't mean that he doesn't lie. so he is lying about always lying which is still valid since just because he lied about always lying doesnt mean he cant lie.

[Guest]

I don't see any paradox here.

The first man says all Cretans are liars. If only some Cretans are liars then he is a liar and what he said is a lie.

The second says all Cretans are liars and he tells the truth. Okay, some Cretans are liars, including him and what he said is a lie.

All this proves to the Greeks is that, as far as they know, all sea-faring Cretans are liars.

Where is the paradox?

This most definatly is a paradox. Because what the Cretan states is both true and false.

Everyone has told a lie, and also been truthful. With or without knowledge of.

[Guest]

I don't see any paradox here.

The first man says all Cretans are liars. If only some Cretans are liars then he is a liar and what he said is a lie.

The second says all Cretans are liars and he tells the truth. Okay, some Cretans are liars, including him and what he said is a lie.

All this proves to the Greeks is that, as far as they know, all sea-faring Cretans are liars.

Where is the paradox?

I agree where is the paradox? No one always or nevers. So when he says all Cretans are liars he is telling the truth because all men are liars at some point! He is lying when he states that he tells all truth - no one is ALWAYS truthful. So he proves to the greek that all Cretans are liars ( at least some of the time)

[Guest]

It is neither!!!

[Guest]

solutions

1.Surly he lied that because if he would tell the truth he was a liar and this is impossibale because he told the truth so if he lied then not ALL cretans are liars but maybe some are and some not

2.Again he lied and again this is possible because not ALL cretans are liars(this is'nt even a must because the lie might be only on the part of the truth...) and not ALL he saying is the truth, So this having no problams with the fact he lied...

I had meet the paradox and its goes like that: If someone say "I am lying" is he lying or not.

also another similar paradox is: is the next sentence is the truth or not? "This sentence is a lie.".

I think you mean to them...

[Guest]

I don't see any paradox here.

The first man says all Cretans are liars. If only some Cretans are liars then he is a liar and what he said is a lie.

The second says all Cretans are liars and he tells the truth. Okay, some Cretans are liars, including him and what he said is a lie.

All this proves to the Greeks is that, as far as they know, all sea-faring Cretans are liars.

Where is the paradox?

its the same cretan not two different ones

[Guest]

the fact is that nobody can say "i always lie and mean it"

cause if he always lied, he'd say "i never lie"

and if he never lied, he'd say "i never lie" too

[Guest]

There is no paradox in this! He is saying that all Cretans are liars and he is a Cretan! So as he says that only he tells the truth, you know that he is lying. He can't be telling the truth when he says that ALL Cretans are liars but he tells the truth. In that case, he would have said "All Cretans but me are liars." So the most logical thing would be that he is lying.

[Guest]

A Cretan sails to Greece and says to some Greek men who are standing upon the shore: "All Cretans are liars." Did he speak the truth, or did he lie?

A week later, the Cretan sailed to Greece again and said: "All Cretans are liars and all I say is the truth." Although the Greeks on the shore weren't aware of what he had said the first time, they were truly puzzled.

Both, he is both lying and speaking the truth about his statement

He contradicted himself, If all Cretans are liars then he himself must be a liar, which makes his statement of "all I say is the truth" a lie.

[Guest]

One could argue that if someone stated "I always lie" that the statement would be false. This is by looking at the context before the word lie. If I say "I ALWAYS brush my teeth," if I am a liar, it does not necessarily mean that I do not brush my teeth, yet the lie is the frequency in the amount. Just like the statement "I ALWAYS lie." It could be interpreted as a lie, yet the true statement may be "I SOMETIMES lie."

I am aware this is not the paradox they mean when they talk about this statement, however I believe it is difficult to think of a statement that needs the word LIE to be the lie.

Edited October 7, 2008 by RyanJ

[Guest]

It makes no difference whether or not he is cretin,greek or a priest he is a liar, it is that simple, all humans are liars and have lied sometime in there life so he did tell the truth when he stated that all cretins are liars but ,he is still a liar.

[Guest]

I agree where is the paradox? No one always or nevers. So when he says all Cretans are liars he is telling the truth because all men are liars at some point! He is lying when he states that he tells all truth - no one is ALWAYS truthful. So he proves to the greek that all Cretans are liars ( at least some of the time)

It is most definitely a paradox because one statement has to be false. You are bringing in outside information into it. In a practical sense of course you may be correct in assuming that people don't always either tell the truth of lie. However this is not covered in the text, it clearly states that all Cretans are liars, and he a Cretan always tells the truth, so therefore he is either lying, or all Cretans do not lie exclusively. That to me is the most simplistic way of looking at it. In my mind I see it as a paradox without him even saying that he is always truthful, because he is a Cretan, and all Cretans lie exclusively, so therefore he is lying, therefore all Cretans do not lie all the time.

[Guest]

That's quite good, actually.

[Guest]

The answer to this question is that the man both lies and tells the truth, as every person does. By him saying that every Cretian lies it is a partial truth. It is a partial truth in the fact that yes everyone is a liar, but Cretians don't lie all the time. Yes they lie but at the same time they are capable of telling the truth

[Guest]

If someone says "I always lie", are they telling the truth? Or are they lying?

The word always is similar to never ... who can actually say "I always/never lie!"

Greeks were right to be confused but nowadays few people would be confused by this one.

[Guest]

The key is that the statements are not totally exclusive. To say that Cretans are liars does is not the same as saying Cretans always lie or that Cretans cannot ever tell the truth. It says that all Cretans have told at least one lie. Moral: never assume you know what the other guy is saying before he explicitly says that - a favorite trick of those in sales and politics.

It does not matter one way or the other. The statement that all Cretans are liars is in itself false. Therefore he is a liar and what he says can be dismissed. Newborn Cretan children are not lairs. And since the word "ALL" is an absolute, which is almost always required to create a paradox, then it includes every Cretan.

So this is not a true paradox.

Simple. He lied. Both times.

[Guest]

isnt destiny in its self a paradox? is what we do the destiny weve forged or was it already meant to happen? what does destiny truly mean? do we design our own destiny or has it been created..if so by whom? who or what dictates the way our lifes go or what impacts our life?

[Guest]

Weird. I have no idea!!

[Guest]

Liar Paradox (Eubulid or Epimenides Paradox) -

1. A Cretan sails to Greece and says to some Greek men who are standing upon the shore: "All Cretans are liars." Did he speak the truth, or did he lie?

2. A week later, the Cretan sailed to Greece again and said: "All Cretans are liars and all I say is the truth." Although the Greeks on the shore weren't aware of what he had said the first time, they were truly puzzled.

If someone says "I always lie", are they telling the truth? Or are they lying?

1. A Cretan sails to Greece and says to some Greek men who are standing upon the shore: "All Cretans are liars." Did he speak the truth, or did he lie?

I think the sailor has a point about people "not always telling the truth". But at the same time he cannot claim to know every Cretan, so he is not telling the absolute and clear truth. I hope I made my point clearly.

2. A week later, the Cretan sailed to Greece again and said: "All Cretans are liars and all I say is the truth." Although the Greeks on the shore weren't aware of what he had said the first time, they were truly puzzled.

Here, I think that when the sailor says "all I say is the truth",he is, in fact, telling a lie because he cannot claim to know every Cretan, so he is not telling the absolute and clear truth.

If someone says "I always lie", are they telling the truth? Or are they lying?

Well, I believe that if a person that states that he/she "always" lies, then that person is either telling the truth by admiting he/she does in fact lie all the time. OR, the person always tells the truth, yet he/she is lying about the fact tha he/she does indeed lie.

And there is your Paradox.

[Guest]

I agree partially, the Cretan may just be trying to confuse them for no apparent reason.

Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

[Guest]

First of all I would like to state my basic interpretation of these statements.

This was a simple question by a philosipher, so I'm going to ignore the fact that he would need to check every person in Crete to say this truthfuly.

Also, my interpretation of 'liar' includes to lie the majority of the time, or giving false statements when it makes a difference.

1. A Cretan sails to Greece and says to some Greek men who are standing upon the shore: "All Cretans are liars." Did he speak the truth, or did he lie?

2. A week later, the Cretan sailed to Greece again and said: "All Cretans are liars and all I say is the truth." Although the Greeks on the shore weren't aware of what he had said the first time, they were truly puzzled.

I'll focus on one first. In the text it says he is Cretan, not in the Cretan's dialogue, so lets say he definitely is Cretan. He says all Cretans and himself are liars. If the statement is true, it therefore corrects itself to false. If it is false, it remains the same. So it is technicaly true.

2. He then confirms his first note, and says he says the truth himself. Being him a Cretan, he counts under the 'all', so calling himself a liar. But he says he speaks nothing but the true, while this defies the other statement, it can simply be changed to false. Meaning at least one Cretan is a truth-teller, but he is definitely a liar.

That is my interpretation of the Paradox.

[Guest]

Simple he lies, he cant say i allways lie becouse thats the truth. So he must lied about that, which means he most tell the truth about something. Remeber that i allways lie was a lie, so that means he dosent allways lie.

Simple, wonder why critic Philetus of Costo find it so hard?

Edited December 6, 2008 by speed