[Guest]

Does it strike anyone else as odd that there is always someone in higher power than ourselves......our boss controls us and we become the boss there are still rules that we must follow......and even when we reach the top (if your religious, and even if you not) just for the sake of debate, acording to most religious literature god and the devil are in a race to get the most souls......so that means that we are all controled....just like pawns on a chess board.....weather it be industry or divine we cant escape it. =(

[Izzy]

Haha, sucks. Technically, you *can* escape it, but a totally anarchic state would lead to some crazy turmoil. ..Which is why you vote libertarian, kids!

...For the sake of debate let's pretend some soul-nomming mythical creatures exist and discuss how ebil they are? ...Let's.. not Though, if Gawd wanted more souls, he'd just admit everyone through the pearly gates. Clearly doesn't. What a twat <- the most appropriate word I could think of to describe the dude. ...Couldv'e quoted Dawkins.. hmm..

[unreality]

it doesn't have to be like that, Asylum. You can live free. You can break out of the stranglehold of religion that humans have placed on themselves specifically in order to control themselves, because they are uncomfortable with the realization of pure freedom. They want answers now, simple digestible answers, not answers they have to work for their whole life. They want someone else to objectively define concepts for them. They want someone else to promise them that if they do that, this and that, they will get this and that. They've been brought up denying chaos and beauty in the world, thinking that everything happens for a reason, everything is predestined, everything is structured. They WANT to think that they have eternal life, that they will never truly die, making their life here almost an unimportant, fleeting touchdown on Earth.

Religion is entirely self-imposed. You can break free.

[Guest]

oh jeez...lol you got me there.....flawless logic O.o but still history repeats itself......even if we were in an anarchy state someone would eventually take power and we would be right back where we started....and maybe its not about heaven or hell but power......what if souls = energy and the devil wants to make another attempt on heaven......how does he get stronger? souls......energy in its most potent form.......just for the sake of argument. ^-^

[Guest]

the 'Dawkins Delusion': look at how many people idolize him. Sad. Give it up and think for yourselves, people. Personally, I don't recognize Dawkins as a higher power.

Now ... ever try to flap your wings and fly? Birds do it. Insects do it. Why can't you?

Laws of physics are embedded in the universe for a reason. They don't let you fly, but they let you DREAM! They let you soar through thought-space that no other being that we know of has ever come close to achieving.

In my dreams I regularly fly. If you don't, keep working on it.

[Guest]

it doesn't have to be like that, Asylum. You can live free. You can break out of the stranglehold of religion that humans have placed on themselves specifically in order to control themselves, because they are uncomfortable with the realization of pure freedom. They want answers now, simple digestible answers, not answers they have to work for their whole life. They want someone else to objectively define concepts for them. They want someone else to promise them that if they do that, this and that, they will get this and that. They've been brought up denying chaos and beauty in the world, thinking that everything happens for a reason, everything is predestined, everything is structured. They WANT to think that they have eternal life, that they will never truly die, making their life here almost an unimportant, fleeting touchdown on Earth.

Religion is entirely self-imposed. You can break free.

the problem with religion is that its totally flawed......its human nature that kids (more times than not) eventually end up behaving like there parents......sooooo many different religions (catholisism specifically) say that god is vengefull yet all forgiving.......if your all forgiving than how are you vengefull? And if he is vengefull than he must expect us to be vengefull.....even tho where told to forgive people ......to many contrdictions for one book.......im gunna start a debate just about this msg the new one.....i would love to hear your opinions on the matter

[Izzy]

Seeksit, I don't idolize Dawkins, I just reserve the right to quote him whenever he says something clever I can relate to. His description of the deity millions worship is brilliant and I don't think it can be reconstructed to articulate the emotions of many atheists any more clearly.

Unreality, religion aside, no, we can't break free. Our civil rights are so limited that it's heartbreaking. If you wanted to do something as harmless as having half a beer, you could be incriminated (this fluctuates with age, but the point still stands). Bah. Lol, I mean, they tried to make glowsticks illegal at raves, after all.

[Guest]

Seeksit, I don't idolize Dawkins, I just reserve the right to quote him whenever he says something clever I can relate to. His description of the deity millions worship is brilliant and I don't think it can be reconstructed to articulate the emotions of many atheists any more clearly.

Unreality, religion aside, no, we can't break free. Our civil rights are so limited that it's heartbreaking. If you wanted to do something as harmless as having half a beer, you could be incriminated (this fluctuates with age, but the point still stands). Bah. Lol, I mean, they tried to make glowsticks illegal at raves, after all.

WHAT! no way where and why did they do this.......i mean you talk about the ignorance of the human race.......i like to quote H.P Lovecraft tho.....i mean anyone who would write letters to his dog wilst in an insane asylum is just amazing.....plus his points are realistic to just about anyone with a brain!

[Izzy]

They didn't succeed, thankfully. (Unreality actually hooked me up with this link.)

[Guest]

Laws of physics are embedded in the universe for a reason.

Yes, to enslave us! At least God gives us free will (even if he punishes us for using it in any other way than he dictates)

Oh well, at least I feel like I've got free will even if I didn't choose to feel that way. I'm going to go wave a glow stick and see if it gets me high!

[Guest]

Haha, sucks. Technically, you *can* escape it, but a totally anarchic state would lead to some crazy turmoil. ..Which is why you vote libertarian, kids!

...For the sake of debate let's pretend some soul-nomming mythical creatures exist and discuss how ebil they are? ...Let's.. not Though, if Gawd wanted more souls, he'd just admit everyone through the pearly gates. Clearly doesn't. What a twat <- the most appropriate word I could think of to describe the dude. ...Couldv'e quoted Dawkins.. hmm..

You vote Libertarian to reach that crazy anarchic state?! Sounds about right to me...

I think that, in part, hierarchy is instilled by the genetic make-up of humanity. Social structure was/is necessary for social animals since someone has to be in charge to make the important decisions. If we are threatened by another tribe or some sort of predator, we need some structure to decide how to respond. Do we run to safety as Bob the Pacifist wants? Or do we fight to the last man like Joe the Cannibal advocates? A totally anarchistic state would theoretically remove that, but then everyone would have to make a personal agreement with every other person and we all know that such n² arrangements are terribly inefficient to resolve. Plus, if someone doesn't honor his/her agreement to another person, who adjudicates over the issue at hand? There needs to be some authority to regulate the part of the system that can't be regulated by individuals.

You can look at the rules set up by someone else that you must follow as "being controlled," but without them, there would be no control and no stability. If every state had been allowed to make their own currency (or are allowed since I think South Carolina is trying to create a SC gold-backed currency ), then the US would have remained some insignificant backwater of a country that no one would care about in the global world. Every state would have its own standard and if you wanted to do business in another state, then you'd have to constantly exchange currency, even if your clients live just on the other side of the border. The dollar became powerful because the Federal government has full control of all state commerce, meaning that people can operate freely throughout the US without worrying about which currency they need to have with them and how to arrange shipments across multiple states. So while some issues may seem unnecessary or a tyrannical "control," they don't always result in a restriction of freedoms. Businesses were freed from the ridiculousness of state currencies when the Feds took over, granting them a great deal of freedom to buy and sell in any state.

So not every rule or regulation leads to a "control." As for the lightstick thing, some people go way overboard, but that's why there are checks and balances in our laws and people get a democratic vote in this country to change things when they go awry (to an extent, but that's another issue entirely... ).

[Izzy]

You vote Libertarian to reach that crazy anarchic state?! Sounds about right to me...

Haha, I should probably explain that. As I've said on these forums before, the philosophy of "an it harm none, do as thou willst" is something I've always tried to live by. I've always understood anarchy to be an entirely lawless state wherein there are no regulations to protect people. Our current government's method of "protection" generates considerable amounts of unhappiness by impeding upon our civil rights. Libertarians (minarchists in specific) offer as much liberation from substandard ordinances as possible while still having an organized military, health care system, and jurisdiction.

..Yeah. Haha, Spongebob sums up my thoughts perfectly. "DISMANTLE THE OPPRESSIVE ESTABLISHMENT!"

[Guest]

Haha, I should probably explain that. As I've said on these forums before, the philosophy of "an it harm none, do as thou willst" is something I've always tried to live by. I've always understood anarchy to be an entirely lawless state wherein there are no regulations to protect people. Our current government's method of "protection" generates considerable amounts of unhappiness by impeding upon our civil rights. Libertarians (minarchists in specific) offer as much liberation from substandard ordinances as possible while still having an organized military, health care system, and jurisdiction.

..Yeah. Haha, Spongebob sums up my thoughts perfectly. "DISMANTLE THE OPPRESSIVE ESTABLISHMENT!"

The problem with most libertarian thinking (at least so far as I can see), is that it still depends on people being decent to each other without supervision. And as much as I'd like to think that that could happen, it doesn't happen in practice. The Kentucky Republican nominee to the Senate, Rand Paul, got into a media dust-up when he complained about the aspect of the Civil Rights Act that mandated private businesses had to integrate. He thought that that was government overreach and that if a racist wanted to keep "colored" people out of his establishment, then it wasn't the government's place to step in and say no. He has since walked that statement back considerably since it didn't really go over well in the national press. It also ignores the fact that integration would never have occurred in the South (or at least segregation would have gone on much longer) without government intervention. The racists held too much sway and businesses were doing fine with the status quo (segregation), so there was no market impetus for change, the solution Rand Paul suggested should have been employed.

So while you want to say, "No harm, no foul," it's rarely that simple. What works for one person or group, may not work for a different individual or group. And "market forces" or some other libertarian platitude doesn't always select for the egalitarian solution. When someone's being wronged, some authority has to step in and do something about it. If people can't self-regulate, then the government has to do something, even if that means that some people (who were abiding by the rules) get their toes stepped on. As long as the stepped on toes are stomped on, I think that it'll work itself out (unless of course they deserve to stomped on ). This is getting a bit off topic, so maybe someone could make a different thread if we want to discuss libertarianism specifically, because I haven't ever heard a libertarian make a convincing argument for "deregulation." They say (like you did), that government is doing too much to "protect" us, without really explaining what they would do differently. The less central control you have, the more anarchic the situation. If you have absolute control, then you have a tyranny and no one is free. If you have anarchy, then there is no control and no one is free, since everyone has to look out for themselves. So you need to find a balance somewhere in the middle and I think that we're certainly trying to find it in this country (though of course, there are always improvements that could be made ). To do my own quote dropping (paraphrased): "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for every other kind." --Winston Churchill

[Guest]

There is no such thing as true anarchy. Just like true communism, it's an ideal that is not achievable with humans' current states of mind.

Anarchy instantly dissolves into tyranny, wherein the strong forces their control on the weak. If everyone in the world were of equal strength, then multiple people would force their control on weaker individuals or groups, all the while intensifying their own power and creating an even stronger group.

Communism is not achievable because it dissolves into socialism. Communism, true communism, is actually what democracy takes a pass at being. It's essentially that every person, no matter their station, gets exactly the same for their work. It will never happen because some people don't want to work, or others take advantage of basically what amounts to a monopoly, then one individual or group will gain in strength and a 'ruling class' will come out, and then you have socialism...where the poor do much to receive little in order to allow the rich to do little to receive much.

End result of either one is a non-benevolent dictatorship.

Back to the topic, though, it's not technically possible, as stated above, to exist without control. Because of human nature, there are constant attempts to obtain power and control through any means available, and some means not available, which results in an almost constant power struggle that "attempts" to provide equality, but really just ends up with someone else making the rules.

Even in a literally lawless society, control is issued to yourself through your environment based on predisposition of attitude and discrimination of sensory input.

[unreality]

I agree completely with Medji, such that it really depends on how you define control, but I guess by the very fabric of the universe (forgetting human nature), the OP is correct - there will always be limits. There are fundamental limits to physics and logic.. the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, Godel's Incompleteness Theorem, etc.

edit - I should add that it's a pseudo-belief of mine that the fractal-ness of the universe suggests that fundamental laws of the universe will reciprocate up onto more macroscopic scales

Edited June 10, 2010 by unreality