chicken egg situation

[Guest]

yeah, we've all been asked this

what came first, the chicken or the egg?

Some people think chicken... and others think... well... egg.

I wanted to start a discussion to see what other people think and their reasoning behind it.

I thouroughly believe that it was the egg.

Merely because no animal can skip it's stages of life.

butterflies don't give birth to butterflies,

and no one was ever born as an adult.

I think this egg came about as a result of evolution,

probably adaptation to surroundings or something...

I can't give a solid answer for how they came about...

But what about anyone else? What do you think?

[Guest]

Well, it depends entirely upon how you define the egg. If you define it as a chicken egg, you must conclude that the chicken came first. If you define it as an egg generally, then it depends on your veiw of how things came about.

Chicken egg:

Evolutionist - The egg from which the chicken came was not a chicken egg. It was the egg of what came before. Only after the mutations necessary to form a chicken happened, and then that chicken laid egg, did a chicken egg exist.

Creationist - God said let there be KFC. (I in no way intend that to belittle the creationist point of veiw, of which I usually am a believer.)

General egg:

Evolutionist - the egg from something else spawned a chicken.

Creationist - Same as above.

Some other points of view:

The Nihilist - Who cares? It doesn't matter anyway.

The Dadaist - The banana

The Sophist - The correct answer is blatantly obivious that there must be either a chicken or an egg at some juncture. The question of whether the chicken or the egg is interesting, but if one considers the processes of procreation and the miricle of fertilization, the answer becomes clear that the rooster must exist concurrently with either the chicken or the egg.

The Feminist - The chicken. Who needs a rooster? He would only see the egg on his own terms anyway.

The Allegorist - Living all his life inside his room, Howard the Coward summoned enough courage to crack those pallid walls and escape into a whole new life - a new existence, as it were. No longer would he remain walled up, feeding off his narrow minded center of self. Now he would see the world, and pluck his sustenance from the salt of the earth.

The Fascist- Both the chicken and the egg are tools of the state and it's not your place to ponder why, but to do as you are told for the good of the state.

The Abstractionist -chicken egg.jpg[/attachment:d80c5]

[Guest]

hmm.

This is the first thing anyone's ever told me that made me consider that it was th chicken.

But do you consider an egg to be what the mother's species is, or what the species of the living thing inside?

[unreality]

This is actually easily answered IMO

Assuming you know evolution (which is just that fittest are the ones that survive over time) to be a generally correct theory, then it's easy. (It's easy for other things too like creatonist, as writersblock showed, lol)

It's easy because a chicken can't be defined. Let's call the major evolutionary step behind chicken the chickenosaurus... i have no idea what it was so let's just call it that lol. It was probably some runty prehistoric bird or something. Or a bird from the ice age. or whatever.

Anyway, over time the chickenosaurus slowly BECOMES the chicken thru natural selection (evolution) and it is vague when the chicken can actually be called a chicken.

But say we have a clear line of what makes a chickenosaurus and what makes a chicken... in that case, the evolved chickenosaurus egg that contains the chicken gives birth to the chicken. Now it all depends on one thing and the way you see it:

If a chickenosaurus gave birth to the egg that made a chicken, is the egg a chicken egg or a chickenosaurus egg?

If you said "chicken egg because it gives birth to a chicken" then the egg came first.

If you said "chickenosaurus egg because was laid by a chickenosaurus" then the chicken came first.

[Guest]

yep

So there really is no definitive answer.

it all depends on Point of View

[Guest]

a "chickenosaurus" is still a chicken it is just pre-chicken. the question isn't what came before the chicken.

the question is of the two of these...a chicken and an an egg...which came first. and my thought is that neither came without the other..if you say the chicken came first you are wrong because where there is a chicken there is also an egg. if you say the egg came first you are wrong because where there is egg there is also chicken. they are simultaniously forming inside of each other.

the real question is WHY are we still eating stuff that comes out of animal butt.

[Guest]

cuz when you clean it out and crack open the shell it is

YUMMY!

[Guest]

It was neither. I like your original assumption that the egg comes first, but what organism first began to lay eggs? My answer: It was the fish. Or was it the fish egg?

[Guest]

the real question is WHY are we still eating stuff that comes out of animal butt.

I dont eat anything that comes out of an animal's butt.

but I eat lots of things that come out of an animal's ******, as do most meat eaters I know.

just because it's "liquid" chicken and not a full grown chicken, it doesnt make much difference, it's still protein.

and I agree with Writersblock's comment above, if animals were created by our maker, then it was the chicken. if it evolved (and most animals have microevolved to some extent), then it was the egg laid by something similar to the chicken we have today.

[Guest]

I think although this is just me being bored and exploring different ideas.

All evolution (non-religous) is thought to be from mutations and natural selection, so I believe that chickens at some point gave live births, but a chicken had a mutated gene so started giving birth to eggs, and this gave them a natural advantage as maybe the young chickens that were live births maybe ran away from their mothers and got eaten, so the ones that were in eggs, i assume, couldnt run away (beacuse they were in eggs) althought they could roll, if the nests were on the side of hills??? But back to the main idea, so the eggs were more likely to survive and the genes were passed on and the genes that were live births died out due to the chickens running away from the nests :S so all chickens then laid eggs rather then live births.

So out of all that ramble i conclude CHICKENS CAME FIRST!!!!!!!

well that took a long time for a little conclusion

Thanks for reading (if you didnt get bored and give up )

[Guest]

All evolution (non-religous) is thought to be from mutations and natural selection

Well, there's also things like genetic drift and copying errors (which are different than mutation) but that's a subject for another thread.

so I believe that chickens at some point gave live births, but a chicken had a mutated gene so started giving birth to eggs

Wow, that's one hell of an advanced mutation! If there were ever a chicken that gave birth the mammalian way, it sure wouldn't be called a chicken.

Chickens evolved from an earlier, non-chicken form of life, e.g., the half-bird, half-reptile Archaeopteryx. These non-chickens came from eggs, though. The egg came first.

[Guest]

Well, there's also things like genetic drift and copying errors (which are different than mutation) but that's a subject for another thread.

Wow, that's one hell of an advanced mutation! If there were ever a chicken that gave birth the mammalian way, it sure wouldn't be called a chicken.

Chickens evolved from an earlier, non-chicken form of life, e.g., the half-bird, half-reptile Archaeopteryx. These non-chickens came from eggs, though. The egg came first.

Yes you are probably right i had no evidence at all to back that up and sort of just went off o a limb and made it up :S

[Guest]

I think although this is just me being bored and exploring different ideas.

Nothing wrong with that.

All evolution (non-religous) is thought to be from mutations and natural selection,

If you are religious and believe that evolution is "a lie" then you are simply WRONG. No question about it.

so I believe that chickens at some point gave live births, but a chicken had a mutated gene so started giving birth to eggs, and this gave them a natural advantage as maybe the young chickens that were live births maybe ran away from their mothers and got eaten, so the ones that were in eggs, i assume, couldnt run away (beacuse they were in eggs) althought they could roll, if the nests were on the side of hills??? But back to the main idea, so the eggs were more likely to survive and the genes were passed on and the genes that were live births died out due to the chickens running away from the nests :S so all chickens then laid eggs rather then live births.

So out of all that ramble i conclude CHICKENS CAME FIRST!!!!!!!

(I know you were just spit balling there - read you last post - so I that laugh was just me liking your story.

It's false of course, chickens always laid eggs. They evolved from theropod dinosaurs. This theropod to bird evolution started some time before the big dinosaur extinction event, and may be why they survived (but there are still a lot of questions there.)

And all dinosaurs were egg layers.

There is intersting contemporary evidence of where the egg laying to live birth change occured.

Fish - lay soft eggs.

Amphibians - lay soft eggs.

Reptiles - lay hard (shelled) eggs*

Mammals and birds - have live births.

* But hang on, that is not entirely true. You see there are (at least) two little groups of reptiles that show something extraordinary!

Skinks (a suborder of lizard) and Chameleons (a family of lizards,) have species that lay eggs, and species that give birth to live young! There's you division right there!

The "reason" they do it is simple: Lizards are 'cold blooded', they can't keep themselves at a constant temperature without sunbathing basically. AND they can't keep their eggs at a constant temperature (which is vital) very easily either. One tactic is to sun oneself then rush back to the eggs and keep them warm, but another is to simply keep the 'eggs' inside ones body and sun them directly. And that is what those species do. They evolved to use live birth as a way to keep their developing young warm enough to survive. (Thank you David Attenborough.)

[Guest]

Well, there's also things like genetic drift and copying errors (which are different than mutation) but that's a subject for another thread.

Chickens evolved from an earlier, non-chicken form of life, e.g., the half-bird, half-reptile Archaeopteryx. These non-chickens came from eggs, though. The egg came first.

I thought the question chiken/egg or egg/chicken meant beast/egg or egg/beast - When did the first eggs appear?

It's false of course, chickens always laid eggs. They evolved from theropod dinosaurs. This theropod to bird evolution started some time before the big dinosaur extinction event, and may be why they survived (but there are still a lot of questions there.)

And all dinosaurs were egg layers.

There is intersting contemporary evidence of where the egg laying to live birth change occured.

Fish - lay soft eggs.

Amphibians - lay soft eggs.

Reptiles - lay hard (shelled) eggs*

Mammals and birds - have live births.

* But hang on, that is not entirely true. You see there are (at least) two little groups of reptiles that show something extraordinary!

Skinks (a suborder of lizard) and Chameleons (a family of lizards,) have species that lay eggs, and species that give birth to live young! There's you division right there!

The "reason" they do it is simple: Lizards are 'cold blooded', they can't keep themselves at a constant temperature without sunbathing basically. AND they can't keep their eggs at a constant temperature (which is vital) very easily either. One tactic is to sun oneself then rush back to the eggs and keep them warm, but another is to simply keep the 'eggs' inside ones body and sun them directly. And that is what those species do. They evolved to use live birth as a way to keep their developing young warm enough to survive. (Thank you David Attenborough.)

Seee bold text ... the birds have live births - ADP - me thinks NOT! Also missed out insects

Also seems a bit of a leap to split into two groups - one suddenly given birth - just thoughts that need research.

Two other things you may want in the equation

Platypus - egg laying mammal - considering this is more of a dinosaur than a chicken its

Kangaroo - placental birth mammals.

A side note - trophic eggs which are for nutrition only - but where and when did they originate? (used by insects and amphibians - not sure about reptiles)

Another side note - it is believed that the cooler reptile eggs give birth to more males - is that a way of ensuring survival?

[Guest]

The chicken did. See proof:

[Guest]

how am i supposed to know? its an impossible question. Something needs to lay the egg, but that must also've come out of an egg. It could go on FOREVER. why does it matter anyway? we can live without knowing the answer and have done for thousands of years. :rolleye: please try asking questions that actually HAVE an answer.

[Guest]

d3k3, thats not proof of anything! lol

[Guest]

"God created the chicken, whether it be egg or full grown. For there is no other way to explain it. So you know who God is, and God is God. God is nice even to chickens and would never do such a thing as rob a childhood from a poor chicken. Therefore, i have come to the answer that the first chicken was born in an egg."

-The Bible of the Blonde

Of course I don't belive this anymore. I don't believe in God. But this is what the bible of the blonde says..... (i don't xactly agree, but a theist might)

[Guest]

Seee bold text ... the birds have live births - ADP - me thinks NOT! Also missed out insects

D'oh!

Teach me to post when I should be sleepin'

As for insects; I wasn't going for a complete history or anything, there's also bacteria, plants and fungi

Also seems a bit of a leap to split into two groups - one suddenly given birth - just thoughts that need research.

Hmm? I was just going for the lizard groups that do both, the research was done and presented in David Attenborough's In Cold Blood documentary series.

Two other things you may want in the equation

Platypus - egg laying mammal - considering this is more of a dinosaur than a chicken its 

Kangaroo - placental birth mammals.

Yup! I didn't forget the marsupials, just skipped them, there are marsupial amphibians that move there eggs straight to their pouches, very cool to see.

A side note - trophic eggs which are for nutrition only - but where and when did they originate? (used by insects and amphibians - not sure about reptiles)

Another side note - it is believed that the cooler reptile eggs give birth to more males - is that a way of ensuring survival?

That's right (although possibly not for all reptiles, not sure on that) the temperature at a critical stage is what determines sex (this was even shown in "Jurassic Park.") I don't know why it's like that, perhaps it is a way to ensure the 'right' mix of sexes? But I don't know how that could be regulated by the reptiles. Perhaps it's just the 'original' way and our way (male and female genes) came later. But I really have no idea.

[Guest]

Chickens prob. just evolved. I would say the chicken!

[Izzy]

The chicken did. See proof:

Hahahah. I took that the wrong way though.. *cough* >_>

[rexytheking]

Anyone that has studied basic biology would answer the egg. This is the one paradox that truly can be answered by science (not math). If you think about it logically. How does Darwin's theory of natural selection occur? One substance or living being wants to do something so in a set period of time it gains the ability to do so. Same logic for the chicken and the egg. Following Darwin's theory, the chicken came from a previous ancestors (possibly the T-Rex). These creatures, whatever they may be, laid eggs, and something slightly different from the original creature emerges. This cycle repeats itself but the one constant in the midst of variables is the egg. Thus the creature, whatever it might be, has laid the egg the will become what we know today as the chicken. Something, besides a chicken, has laid an egg that has mutated to what we consider to be a chicken today. That chicken came from an egg. That egg however did not come from a chicken, it came from some other organism that through evolution, laid an egg that mutated to become a chicken. Thus in the end, it clearly points towards the egg.