[unreality]

We've all heard the phrase "ignorance is bliss". It's true, there's no denying that. When you learn about something gruesome you wish you hadn't just learned that, etc. Some bad piece of knowledge or expectation can ruin your day. The term 'white lie' refers to a lie to keep someone happy.

Hear me out: when I say bliss I'm not implying that ignorance is better overall. Bliss isn't a deep lifelong happiness but rather temporary reprieve. Think of a sexual orgasm... at the peak your mind is completely blank - completely ignorant but completely blissful.

Okay, that's all background: recently I was raking leaves and a revelation sort of hit me in the form of a phrase that could go something like this: Ignorance is bliss, but knowledge is power. Would you rather be happy, blissful, doing what you're told, believing what you've heard, working to create a little life for yourself inside the system ... or would you rather be knowledgeable and powerful, not necessarily powerful over others but over yourself and your mind and body and thoughts and path in life, making a splash in the system, breaking free of bounds.

I think knowledge is power, and by that I mean deeper control over yourself and long-term contentment. I think ignorance is bliss, and by that I mean simply pure happiness in the moment.

I also think that both are important for a healthy life: it's about balance. What do you think? Which of the two people outlined in bold would you rather be?

[Guest]

Rather than give a straight answer to that, I'll ask another question:

If, one day, we can program computers to have artificial intelligence complete with emotions, wouldn't it be a good idea to make as many computers as possible, program them to be blissfully happy all the time, and leave them switched on, stacked up in a warehouse? Think of all the happiness we would bring to the world!

[Izzy]

Rather than give a straight answer to that, I'll ask another question:

If, one day, we can program computers to have artificial intelligence complete with emotions, wouldn't it be a good idea to make as many computers as possible, program them to be blissfully happy all the time, and leave them switched on, stacked up in a warehouse? Think of all the happiness we would bring to the world!

I just lol'd. My mom walked over to see what I was doing. >_>

Sure, ignorance may be a bliss, but can't better, more productive things make you happy as well, perhaps even more so? Yeah, there are some things, for the sake of my stomach's well-being I'd rather not know, but in the end, I think we're better off knowing about them. Definitely making me the second person, but you already knew that. Ignorance is bliss, but ignorance leads to waaaaay too many world problems, which aren't blissful at all. Think of it long-term. Maybe the thought of people eating bugs in Africa freaks you out, or people with rare birth-defects. Maybe. But, by informing people about it we can actually do something about it, and if "disturbing" things are eliminated, the "bliss level" of the whole world goes up, which is *slightly* more important than your personal well-being for about 15 seconds.

[unreality]

yeah the general point I was going for was that bliss is good short-term but not long-term, and there needs to be a balance. So pure bliss and ignorance is not okay. Those robots that octopuppy described wouldn't truly be "artificial intelligence" without the struggles, ups and downs, etc. They don't have emotions unless they have all emotions, or at least basic and counter-emotions. They don't have bliss unless they can understand that they are blissful. Right now our machines are essentially totally ignorant, so you could argue totally blissful. Give it 'points' to be happy about and just rack up the points? Done.

I would never want to be in a vegetative state of pure bliss, just like I'd never really want to go to heaven if I happened to believe in such a thing. I like Earth. I like the experiences and the interesting things and living with all its problems and joys and emotions and thoughts. I wouldn't feel good "bringing the happiness" to the world with those robots, I would feel guilty for denying them their right as sentient beings to fully experience the world rather than one pre-ordained eternal emotion, no matter how good it feels.

[Guest]

I like bliss, in fact I love it, washing the car or clearing snow - lost in the moment. I love discovering new things and learning new things. I don't feel empowered, well I do if I can pass it on to those that are interested.

Knowledge can be a burden, it;s like a necessary evil. Not all the time, perhaps that's more to do with media and it;s effect on society. The power is to control yourself is top of my list. Do we really know ourselves. Are there not moments or times when we are not ourselves or know ourselves, doubt ourselves. Bliss is not everlasting as you pointed out. I wonder what the longest period of bliss is/was. I'll repeat a 2000 year old piece of graffiti...

Society shows us what we are, solitude tells us what we should be!

[Guest]

Someone please invent brain bleach so I can remove some of the horrors that I have witnessed. Knowledge/power is necessary and good, but knowledge of some things (ie 2g1c PLEASE FOR THE SAKE OF THE CHILDREN DO NOT GOOGLE IT!) only gives me the power to vomit at will. That's not so useful. So, I want some of both.

[Guest]

It seems when asking if you would rather be permanently blissful & ignorant,

Everyone seems to have forgot about nice things, yes you wouldn't know you were missing them but surely you'd rather know they're happening. I do like ignorance it helps me maintain a positive outlook although I wouldn't want to be ignoring the things that will make me really happy in the long term. That sounds like quite an airhead response but insomnia has created a dosile state of mind in me.

Oh and I very much agree with never searching 2g1c ever.

Such trauma

Edited November 13, 2009 by Jubjub

[Izzy]

I had to google 2g1c to see what you meant. Brought back some horrors from about two years ago. ..I was eating a bagel when my friend linked me to it.

Using 2g1c as an example.. Sure, it was gross, you may have vomited, your mind may forever be scarred, but: it passed, think of all the cultural references (like the vids making fun of it) you understand because of it, and how many (pointless or not) jokes you wouldn't understand without it.

Would love to see anyone experiencing serious trauma other than "oh em gee, it was grossssssssssss" because of that vid. ..It doesn't happen. You're fine, get over it.

[Guest]

Would love to see anyone experiencing serious trauma other than "oh em gee, it was grossssssssssss" because of that vid. ..It doesn't happen. You're fine, get over it.

Might just be me being paranoid but you seemed quite patronizing.

The trauma thing was sarcasm.

And just to be completely pedantic I think the parents of those girls and whoever else was in the feature length may of suffered a little more than going "oh dear that's my girl, in scat" . Ignorance being bliss is basically situational I guess.

[Izzy]

Sarcasm is often missed on the internet. I apologize.

But no, seriously. If the majority of people benefit from exposure to certain situations, isn't willful ignorance of these affairs downright selfish? I'm all for personal rights and of course no one's forcing anyone to do anything they don't want to do, but it's just a bit "This scares me, this is unknown to me, this disgusts me, therefore I want to completely blind myself from it." ..It's cool if you want to do this, but if everyone makes that decision, then improving conditions to the point where that thing is not longer a threat will become frustratingly difficult.

Fair point about the parents. ...I guess it's just a sexual preference they'll have to learn to deal with? They might not like what they've learned, but tbh, I'd want to know what my kid's up to. This would be a good time to instill some AIDS awareness for their kids..

[Guest]

Yeah, I guess it's like if you ignore things then you can't stand up to them and make a difference. If you just pretend somethings not happening then you're leaving whatever happens next up to chance when surely it would be much better to face it. Even if you don't help you still no that actually took charge and did what you could rather than just leaving it. This really does work either though.

[Izzy]

Leaving everything up to chance could cause a spiraling downwards effect. Sometimes we don't have enough time to just let things slip by and work themselves out.

In large part, this sort of thing contributed to the decline of the Roman Empire, among other things of course. I mean, around that time was when Christianity began to be preached, and along with it the doctrine of patience. Active virtues of society were discouraged, because this new concept of a god that played an active role in human affairs led to the thoughts that everything would just work themselves out. ...And then the Empire collapsed.

So, yeah guys, take some initiative, make an impact on the world. Don't let the future be total crap because you're afraid of personal discomfort. Enough people do that already.

[Guest]

Epiphanies at 3am.

Yeah, I've never been much of a fun of fate.

[Guest]

Using 2g1c as an example.. Sure, it was gross, you may have vomited, your mind may forever be scarred, but: it passed, think of all the cultural references (like the vids making fun of it) you understand because of it, and how many (pointless or not) jokes you wouldn't understand without it.

I could do quite well not understanding those cultural references and jokes. Think of all the people who live happy fulfilled lives without knowing leetspeak or seeing a ytmnd page. I wouldn't say those are beneficial or enriching.

Would love to see anyone experiencing serious trauma other than "oh em gee, it was grossssssssssss" because of that vid. ..It doesn't happen. You're fine, get over it.

I was trying to relate to people on a level they can understand. I agree that that video doesn't compare to what I saw in Iraq, but most people haven't experienced combat. I endured it so others wouldn't have to. As a friend of mine says, "You don't have to roll in it to know what it smells like." The same applies to all sorts of things including atrocities commited by people against other people and/or animals.

One of the most horrific things I personally witnesses was the aftermath of muslim terrorists exacting retribution on informers. Normal people who just wanted to live free and tried to stop the oppression of the terrorists. You don't need to see the mutilated bodies, smell the incomparable smell of bodies that have turned to jelly in the desert heat(I still get nauseous thinking about it), or hear the survivors weeping for their father or mother or brother or sister to understand that we must extinguish those organizations, people, and governments who inculcate, support, enable, and promote that behavior.

So, yeah. If you have the character it takes to stand up and fight(at times literally) when it's necessary and stop fighting when it's not, then be that person and do those things. I agree that burying your head in the sand is one of the worst things to do ie Neville Chamberlain and his ilk, or Izzy's roman empire subverted by polluted and bastardized christianity.

...oops... sorry for the rant

[Izzy]

I could do quite well not understanding those cultural references and jokes. Think of all the people who live happy fulfilled lives without knowing leetspeak or seeing a ytmnd page. I wouldn't say those are beneficial or enriching.

But you can't come to that conclusion until you know what they are. You don't necessarily need to physically see these things to understand their concepts. You can make the distinction about whether further research is necessary and would contribute something worthwhile to your life just by knowing what they are. There's definitely a correlation between knowing about something, and fixing something. If you happen to find out useless information along the way, so be it.

(Example: I just went to urbandictionary to find out what a ytmnd page was, and decided it was useless. Had I not known about it, I wouldn't be able to decide it was useless, and might have one day in the future mistaken it for some political term or something that's actually ...important.)

I was trying to relate to people on a level they can understand. I agree that that video doesn't compare to what I saw in Iraq, but most people haven't experienced combat. I endured it so others wouldn't have to. As a friend of mine says, "You don't have to roll in it to know what it smells like." The same applies to all sorts of things including atrocities commited by people against other people and/or animals.

One of the most horrific things I personally witnesses was the aftermath of muslim terrorists exacting retribution on informers. Normal people who just wanted to live free and tried to stop the oppression of the terrorists. You don't need to see the mutilated bodies, smell the incomparable smell of bodies that have turned to jelly in the desert heat(I still get nauseous thinking about it), or hear the survivors weeping for their father or mother or brother or sister to understand that we must extinguish those organizations, people, and governments who inculcate, support, enable, and promote that behavior.

Yeah... It's stuff like that that makes people want to get up and do something about it. =/ You don't have to be there to understand (though I'm sure it's a lot more intense for soldiers actually there), but you still have to know it's happening to be able to contribute and help.

roman empire subverted by polluted and bastardized christianity.

[Guest]

...Izzy's roman empire subverted by polluted and bastardized christianity.

I have nothing against blaming Christianity, but I think it's a bit more complicated than that. Putting the sole (or majority of the) blame on Christianity would seem to me to contribute to what Izzy was saying about being willfully ignorant. There were a lot of mitigating factors surrounding it's fall (like having crazy emperors and general complacency to name a couple), so to focus on the Christianity aspect misses the larger point and opens you up for attack from someone who wants to argue the point. This, in my mind, is why knowledge is key. If you have the necessary knowledge about a subject, you can continue to argue your side when someone changes tack. Once you get out of your knowledge base, you lose the power to contribute meaningfully to the conversation (not that that stops some people ). At that point, you have to either categorically deny what the other person is saying or nod your head and move on.

I admittedly never really considered the rise of Christianity in relation of the fall of the Roman Empire, but considering that the early practitioners (and many still today

) believe(d) that the Second Coming is around the corner, there would have been a de-emphasis toward active living and a refocus on preparing for the life to come. So in that respect, it makes perfect sense in my mind that Christianity played an important role in the fall, though I have no data to back that up other than what people have said here and I haven't the time or impetus to see if the assertion is supported by the facts. I guess that plays a role in the ignorance discussion, though I'm not sure exactly what that role would be...

But no, seriously. If the majority of people benefit from exposure to certain situations, isn't willful ignorance of these affairs downright selfish? I'm all for personal rights and of course no one's forcing anyone to do anything they don't want to do, but it's just a bit "This scares me, this is unknown to me, this disgusts me, therefore I want to completely blind myself from it." ..It's cool if you want to do this, but if everyone makes that decision, then improving conditions to the point where that thing is not longer a threat will become frustratingly difficult.

I'm sort of surprised that the Matrix hasn't made it's way into this discussion, as I see it as sort of the extreme examination of the argument between knowledge and ignorance. If you look at the parallelism between Neo and Cypher, they were both pulled from the Matrix, but while Neo accepts the new reality and uses the knowledge to become something more; Cypher rejects the reality and even states that "Ignorance is bliss" when he cuts the deal with Agent Smith. Humanity is enslaved, but Cypher chooses the ignorant path to be happy, while Neo sacrifices everything (even his own life (or so he believes)) to keep and spread the knowledge of the true reality.

You could argue that neither is right in their approach. Cypher denies those who would be free to seek the truth the opportunity to do so, while Neo plans to release everyone from the Matrix, even those like Cypher who refuse to accept the change. As for who I would be, I would definitely be a Neo compared to a Cypher. I certainly don't think that people should be denied the chance to see the world as it is, though I would be loath to enforce my world-view on someone else. I would try to show them why (through the passing and expansion of knowledge) they should accept the changes or idiosyncrasies of their situation.

I look at the world from a systems perspective. Everything ties together in a causal relationship (even if the relation is incredibly complex). For my personal aspirations, I couldn't imagine remaining willfully ignorant of most issues. In order to better comprehend and interact with the world we live in, I'm always looking for more pieces of the puzzle. I want to be able to connect the dots; so that I can understand and explain why fascism was able to rise out of the ashes of Germany after WWI or what mechanisms of evolution led to the variety and differences of the life we see on Earth today and you can't do any of that by rejecting facts and remaining ignorant. For me, the attainment of knowledge is of the utmost importance. People who don't want to see how things work or why things are the way they are bamboozle me. I am always interested in looking to know more, even if some of that knowledge does prove to be useless (like ytmnd ). In my view, you never know when a particular piece of information may actually prove useful, so I'm always prepared to look deeper into subjects that interest me.

I'm not sure how tangential some of this has been to the direction of the thread, so I'll quit now while I'm not too far behind...

[Izzy]

I have nothing against blaming Christianity

....

, but I think it's a bit more complicated than that. Putting the sole (or majority of the) blame on Christianity would seem to me to contribute to what Izzy was saying about being willfully ignorant. There were a lot of mitigating factors surrounding it's fall (like having crazy emperors and general complacency to name a couple), so to focus on the Christianity aspect misses the larger point and opens you up for attack from someone who wants to argue the point.

Well, yeah, the fall of the Roman empire was a huuuuge thing with lots of problems going on at once. I wasn't solely blaming Christianity, merely bringing it up because a. I'm Izzy. I do that with Christianity. b. it really does demonstrate how ignorance (willful, forced, or just plain ignorance) can contribute to the decline of something great. Plausible reasons why the Roman Empire actually fell:

1. Only a handful of people (mainly those ruling it) actually believed the civilization was worth saving. The overwhelming majority had been methodically excluded from political responsibilities. These people were vulnerable to attacks because they weren't able to protect themselves. They couldn't serve in the army because they were either too old or no one would be able to uphold their farms when they were away. Their economic situation was.... hopeless. A lot of the people were serfs, who couldn't do anything to help even if they wanted to.

2. While the empire was still expanding, it grew more and more prosperous because it was fed by the wealth and new markets in the new provinces. However, when expansion ceased, economic progress ceased as well, and the economy quickly became really crappy.

3. I would be off on the numbers, but wasn't the Roman Empire like 1/3 - 2/3 slaves? Slaves could sort of be compared to the illegal immigrants in the US today. Their abundance and willingness to work at low wages put Roman Citizens out of their jobs, so they'd seek work elsewhere, and unemployment rates sky-rocketed.

4. Sorta like the Christianity thing.. but.. taxes started being used for a government-run welfare system, and private enterprises were crushed. People learned to except things for no work, so the old Roman virtues of self-reliance and initiative were lost. The more responsibility the government took over from its citizens, the weaker the citizens became.

5. Very little of the Roman army, at the point of its decline, was actually composed of Romans. Who better to fight for you than someone who doesn't give a crap about you, right?

6. Man.. what were they called.. my history teacher would kill me. The Huns, Visigoths.. uh.. Vandals, Anglo-Saxons... uh... yeah, those dudes + more dudes essentially invaded at the same time. Since their army was already weakened at this point, it didn't take long for them to go kaput.

...But if not for Christianity, people wouldn't have sat around blinding themselves to these problems whilst doing nothing.

/history lesson

Edited November 18, 2009 by Izzy