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21 replies to this topic

#11 schmod54

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 04:18 PM

Spoiler for version 4

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#12 roolstar

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 04:31 PM

Spoiler for Version 4


Am I right?
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#13 bonanova

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 11:07 PM

Is this for all the rest of the versions? [3] & [4]?

Sorry for all the question, but I just don't want to start on the wrong route......

Yes.
Assume they have full knowledge.
The phrase was added because #1 didn't require it.
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The greatest challenge to any thinker is stating the problem in a way that will allow a solution.
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#14 bonanova

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 11:26 PM

Spoiler for version 4

Spoiler for That seems to work ...

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The greatest challenge to any thinker is stating the problem in a way that will allow a solution.
- Bertrand Russell

#15 bonanova

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 12:08 AM

Spoiler for Version 4
Am I right?

Spoiler for Two comments on your solution. See if you agree

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The greatest challenge to any thinker is stating the problem in a way that will allow a solution.
- Bertrand Russell

#16 schmod54

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 09:07 AM

Nice job!

Thanks! I found this site through your google gadget... I enjoy the riddles here.
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#17 roolstar

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 05:39 PM

Spoiler for Two comments on your solution. See if you agree



Actually "Are you a knave?" and "Are you a knave AND is one of the others a Knight?" are quite different:


In Are you a knave?:
1- The commoner has 2 options: Lie or tel the Truth
==>
Lie: YES
TRUTH: NO

This does not solve anything since you cannot always differentiate the answer from the KNIGHT and KNAVE's NO!


In [b]Are you a knave AND is one of the others a Knight?"
:
1- A AND B means that a YES answer would have to be that A is a YES AND B is a YES!
2- The commoner has 2 options: Lie (IN BOTH STATEMENTS) or tell the Truth (IN BOTH STATEMENTS)
==>
LIE: YES & NO ==> NO
TRUTH: NO & YES ==> NO

And that was the mistake in my logic the first time!

And that made me realise that a commoner will either go all the way with his lies or the way with truths!

For that reason, he will always answer like a KNIGHT or a KNAVE would as he pleases...

And then sadly I also realised that
Spoiler for schmod54 solution may not be valid because:


And then I found a question that a knave cannot answer!!!

And I started this new thread! Knights, Commoners & Knaves (ORIGINAL)

I wrote this without a lot of focus and attention ( At least not as much as I give focus to other posts) not to mention that this does not solve the puzzle at hand :D
So please feel free to criticise my thinking process!
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#18 bonanova

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 03:29 AM

Well I think what's happening is that a single question is being treated as if it were two questions.
Spoiler for Regarding the question you pose...
Spoiler for Regarding the Commoner's response...
Spoiler for Regarding SCHMOD54 solution...

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The greatest challenge to any thinker is stating the problem in a way that will allow a solution.
- Bertrand Russell

#19 roolstar

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 10:51 AM

I agree 100% with you Bonanova...

The fact that the 2 statements are basically the same means that we will be in a TT or FF situation so I can drop any part of the question with no effect.

My reasonning behind the commoner answer for SCHMOD54 and the knave's response was also incorrect! What the heck was I smoking? :D

However this (The commoner can imitate a Knight or a Knave as he pleases) means that the only way to find a question that would work is to eliminate at least one of the suiters from the seclection process!!

And this is exactly what SCHMOD54 did!!!

Good job man!


BTW, we totally neglected Version [3]: basically because, if we can ask ONE question to find the suiter, why ask TWO??

Still it would be cool to know these 2 questions...
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#20 schmod54

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 03:34 PM

However this (The commoner can imitate a Knight or a Knave as he pleases) means that the only way to find a question that would work is to eliminate at least one of the suiters from the seclection process!!

And this is exactly what SCHMOD54 did!!!

Good job man!


Thanks!

Spoiler for my approach

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