[Guest]

After reading though some of the other discussions and debates, ie. Religious debate, War Club sign up, and Athiest discussion, I feel that the concept of theism is misrepressented on this site.

I would like a thread were people can ask questions and talk about theism, and calmly explain why they believe the way they do.

Its a gross misinterpetation that religous people are ignorant and that they dont believe in science and reasoning.

Anyone can post, but in this thread but I would like to keep to the assumption that there is a god, regardless of who you think he/she/it is. The purpose of this is not to argue over the existence of something that can neither be proven nor disproven. Otherwise it will just turn into the religous debate part 2, and I dont think anyone wants that.

And we will define religion as a belief system, not neccissarily organized.

[Guest]

Once again, Octopuppy, you have put a lot of thought into your post and have done so in a respectful manner. For this reason, I am glad to respond.

I'd have loved to hear what he had to say, particularly given the field he worked in. Oh well, too late now

Yes, I agree...he could have been a strong voice for the Christian faith. Interestingly, Scott's father - the fervent athiest, anti-creation lobbiest - after watching the grace by which Scott accepted his illness and witnessing events during that time that could only be attributed to God, has now begun to attend church occationally and converse with Bible Scholars and pastors in an effort to attain some of "whatever" he witnessed his son enjoy. At Scott's memorial service, his father spoke and said "In his last years, Scott seemed to have grasped the true meaning of life. I am anxious to follow in his footsteps."

I think you maybe missed what I was driving at there. I was questioning not only how Scott believed, but also what he believed.

Sorry about that, I will try again. If I miss the mark, let me know.

Either

1) The universe has no creator and no purpose.

or

2) There is a human-like God, the Bible is the Word of God, God listens to prayer, Christ died for our sins, we have souls which go to heaven when we die, and so on.

I hate to be the one to answer for him since his knowledge of the universe and the science therein was VASTLY beyond mine (he would always have to dumb-down his research to terms I could understand! ) However, like I said before, since he is not here and since I was very close to him and we had many talks about faith and I would listen to him pray, I will try my best to answer ONLY WHAT I KNOW that he believed...and why (this may not be adequate...but I'll do my best.)

In Scott's research he originally assumed problem #1. (It is just as easy to delete any evidence of a creator from your mind if you choose to as it is to see him in everything.) However, at some point (SEVERAL YEARS BEFORE HIS TUMOR) Scott began to question the logic of how such an intricately evolved universe could exist without intelligent design. Since there is obviously no tangible scientific evidence that proves God's existance, this was indeed a dilema for him. He struggled for many years with this. Eventually, as God began to enlighten his heart more and more, he decided that with or without empirical evidence, he could no longer deny God's presence in the universe and he did indeed take a leap of faith.

[TANGENT] If you are waiting for Science to lead you to God, you will never get there. God wants to be sought out for who he is, not because you've mathematically or scientifically proven he has to exist so you guess you'll try to get along with him. Think about your own children. Do you want them to love and respect you only because they are forced to, or would you prefer they love you and respect you because you are worthy of their love and respect. This is the same with God and us, his children. [/TANGENT]

I would expect anyone of a scientific mind to be extremely wary of proposition 2, which contains all kinds of unsupported hypotheses, many of which require belief in systems which are bizarre, supernatural and unnecessary.

This is exactly why he struggled for so long. His heart told him one thing, but his reasoning told him another. This was a battle he fought for many years. Only AFTER he made his leap of faith did he investigate religion. He looked at Buddism, Universalism (possibly others that I am not aware of) and finally settled on Christianity because it fit best with what God had placed in his heart.

Why would a person jump to so many conclusions?

Sorry, I cannot answer this. Because there is no science I can fall back on there is really no way for me to explain the transformation of the heart unless you have experienced it. Kind of like the "encounter" that AD was curious about. Would you believe me if I said, "Yes, I did meet Yeshua?" I doubt it. But I did...in my heart. My hope is that one day you might also experience what I'm talking about.

For one thing it would be presumptuous in the extreme to reject all the other religions in the world just because Christianity predominates in your social category.

Agreed. I feel very blessed to be raised in a country and in an environment where Christianity is prevalent and where I am allowed the freedom to worship God. However, like I mentioned in an earlier post, God is evident everywhere, in everything in creation. God judges a man's heart, not his level of education. He expects you to acknowledge his existance not to be versed in the Bible. The Bible is a helpmate for those of us who have already acknowledged and experienced God in our hearts. It is a comfort, not a necessity for a relationship with the Creator.

Maybe there is a Creator who...

I'm not sure how to answer all of these senarios in this post (although I could use Biblical references for each statement, but I don't think that's what you want to hear.) Perhaps we could take this to a PM discussion, which I would be glad to try my best to answer what I can for you (don't forget, I am not a Seminary graduate...just someone who loves God and had studied the Bible so that I can hear his voice and so that I might develop my character.)

If you believe in God, why not form your own opinion? In that case you should certainly steer clear of religion.

I can't remeber if it was this thread or the War Club thread, but I personally am not a big fan of "religion." Religion was developed form man's personal agenda. I practice a RELATIONSHIP with God. And the church I attend is a non-denominational Bible-based church.

Oh, and as for using faith to believe in the supernatural, that's like saying "I chose to believe in things that I not only don't understand but will not even try to understand (since I am confident that I will never be able to rationalise them).

Yup. At some point we have to admit that we don't know it all and we are limited by our brains and our 3-dimentional environment. We are finite beings, God is infite...we will NEVER have the ability to fully grasp him as long as we are in our flesh. Personally, I would rather put my faith in someone that is infinately more intelligent than me, who spans existance as sees and knows all; than some other dude down here on the dirt who is finite as well...even Scott!

Maybe Scott found a way to believe in God without abandoning reason. Since he is not here to tell us I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Thanks.

[Guest]

[moderating]

I've shown no bias. My "commenting" in this thread was due to your taking it upon yourself to tell a poster his comments are inappropriate and should have them moved. What's inappropriate is for you to play junior mod. If you find comments inappropriate, condescending, etc., report them.

Any further complaints about my moderating or discussion on this matter should be done in private; this thread is not the place for it.

[/moderating]

My apologies. The OP on this thread outlined what was and was not appropriate for posts here. I was referring to that. I believe whole-heartedly in freedom of speech (which allows me to voice my beliefs as well) I was only asking that we try to stick to the OP. I know that in the Religious Debate there have been many many times that the discussion has has to be pointed back to the topic at hand because it has veered off an a tanget. That is what I found happening here. EJL specifically said he did NOT want this to turn into the Relious Debate, but it is clearly heading that direction by allowing these kinds of posts.

Again, I apologize if I was out of line.

[Guest]

My apologies. The OP on this thread outlined what was and was not appropriate for posts here.

It doesn't work that way. Any statements in a thread are open for scrutiny whether or not the OP has different wishes for words going unchallenged. This goes for theists, atheists, those that believe the moon landing was a hoax, etc. Again, this thread is not the place for discussion on this matter.

Back on topic...

[Guest]

It doesn't work that way. Any statements in a thread are open for scrutiny whether or not the OP has different wishes for words going unchallenged. This goes for theists, atheists, those that believe the moon landing was a hoax, etc. Again, this thread is not the place for discussion on this matter.

Back on topic...

Okie Dokie. On we go...

[Guest]

Well, first off, God does not desire anyone to suffer...it is those who deny him that choose of their own free will to spend eternity apart from him. And, being that God IS love (which includes all the properties of love: peace, joy, goodness, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control) when he removes himself from their presence (again, by their own choice) then the torment that ensues is due to an existance without LOVE.

Why does someone who does not believe deserve this? God doesn't force anyone to love him or to want to be with him. What would be the point of being worshipped if it is by a bunch of robots programmed to praise you? That's not genuine love. It HAS to be an act of free will.

And don't forget...God's existance is evident in all of creation, so men are WITHOUT excuse as to not acknowledge him.

I hope that answers your questions. If not, re-word it and I'll try again.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. Even those who believe and love God still are subject to torture for no apparent reason. Take my mom for instance. She's only 45, In May (on her birthday) She was diagnosed with breast cancer, stage 2 of 5 and the most aggressive type. In June she had surgery to remove it. For a month after, she was in excruciating pain. At the end of June she began chemo therapy. I don't believe I've ever seen her so miserable and in pain. She can't taste food, has no hair (which she had gorgeous hair before), her eyelashes are falling out, she has no energy, she can't do what she loves most (teach young children) because her immune system is down and she can't be exposed to all those germs or it could end up fatal.

So if what you say is correct then by her belief in God, and Christ, etc is nil. And personally, even though I've become a bit agnostic as I grow older, i think that's a load of bull, primarily because she is definitely one of the most loving, caring and giving people I know.

[Guest]

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one...i think that's a load of bull.

Uh oh. I think you misunderstood me. I didn't say that God doesn't allow suffering. It doesn't matter what religious persuasion or non-persuasion you follow, suffering will happen. Take Scott for example. What I id say is that God does not DESIRE anyone to suffer. However, since the world is depraved both spiritually and physically, bad things happen...even to good people. Billy Graham has suffered strokes and memory loss, the Pope was shot, innocent children are gunned down, babies are born addicted to crack - Suffering happens and God rarely choses to intervene to stop it. This is not becuase he does not love us. It is difficult for me to explain why he allows this, so let me use a silly example: Have you ever seen the movie Bruce Almighty with Jim Carrey? Remember the part where he gets sick of answering all the prayer email and just sends "Yes" as a reply to all? The world went into total chaos! What I'm trying to show is that we may never know why God allows so many to suffer but chooses to protect others (on the short-term)...while we are here in our finite bodies, but God promises (uh oh...Scripture Quote!) that "Our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all." (2 Corinthians 4:17) AND..."Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." (1 Corinthians 14:12)

Edit: Another example... God called our Heavenly Father for a purpose. It is because he loves the children (us) he created in his image. A loving father would never want to see his children suffer, it breaks his heart. If he could protect us from that he would. However, protecting everyone from suffereing would go back to the argument I made about free-will. He would have to remove our free-will to remove the depravity among us. To remove our free-will would negate our decision to love him for who he is...and that would negate Love as we know it.

Edited September 12, 2008 by puzzlegirl

[Guest]

Uh oh. I think you misunderstood me. I didn't say that God doesn't allow suffering. It doesn't matter what religious persuasion or non-persuasion you follow, suffering will happen. Take Scott for example. What I id say is that God does not DESIRE anyone to suffer. However, since the world is depraved both spiritually and physically, bad things happen...even to good people. Billy Graham has suffered strokes and memory loss, the Pope was shot, innocent children are gunned down, babies are born addicted to crack - Suffering happens and God rarely choses to intervene to stop it. This is not becuase he does not love us. It is difficult for me to explain why he allows this, so let me use a silly example: Have you ever seen the movie Bruce Almighty with Jim Carrey? Remember the part where he gets sick of answering all the prayer email and just sends "Yes" as a reply to all? The world went into total chaos! What I'm trying to show is that we may never know why God allows so many to suffer but chooses to protect others (on the short-term)...while we are here in our finite bodies, but God promises (uh oh...Scripture Quote!) that "Our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all." (2 Corinthians 4:17) AND..."Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." (1 Corinthians 14:12)

Edit: Another example... God called our Heavenly Father for a purpose. It is because he loves the children (us) he created in his image. A loving father would never want to see his children suffer, it breaks his heart. If he could protect us from that he would. However, protecting everyone from suffereing would go back to the argument I made about free-will. He would have to remove our free-will to remove the depravity among us. To remove our free-will would negate our decision to love him for who he is...and that would negate Love as we know it.

Fair enough. i still question it thought. And probably will until 'God' explains it to me. I mean the other thing too, is at 18 months old, I had the measles and it cause me to go deaf in my right ear. (hence why i have debates here... ) I mean at 18 months old, there is no way I did anything, And i really don't see how one could grow from being half deaf oh and bi-polar...I mean everything I wanted to do I can't now..

[Guest]

Fair enough. i still question it thought. And probably will until 'God' explains it to me. I mean the other thing too, is at 18 months old, I had the measles and it cause me to go deaf in my right ear. (hence why i have debates here... ) I mean at 18 months old, there is no way I did anything, And i really don't see how one could grow from being half deaf oh and bi-polar...I mean everything I wanted to do I can't now..

I was born with a heart defect. Not just a murmur, but a major deformity. The cardiologists told my parents I would not live to be more than a few weeks old. Of course I confounded them by not only living, but thriving. My pediatric cardiologist who was not a believer, labeled my existance as a "miracle" and used me as an example of the unexplainable in his lectures (he also taught Cariology at KU Med.) Anyhow...growing up agnostic I did not attribute my life as a miracle nor was I thankful to a god (if there was one) for making my heart all out-of-whack so that I wasn't allowed to participate in sports with my friends or my parents wouldn't let me participate in certain activities at school, etc. I was ticked! I was also told that I would never be able to carry a pregnancy and live. Not that I am not able to become pregnant, but the damaging effect that the extra blood volume and pressure it would have on my heart would do irrepairable damage and both the fetus and myself would likely die. Little did I know then that God had created me with that heart defect for a purpose! Indeed, when I married and it was time for us to start a family we mourned over the loss of the biological children we would never create, then we walked into the adoption agency. Today I praise God that I was "fearfully and wonderfully made" because my defect that brought me "light and momentary suffering" achieved for me an eternal blessing: my two adopted sons. Had I not had this heart defect I would not have these boys who I love more than my very life. I believe with everything in my heart that I was created for these boys and these boys were created for me. So if I had the choice, would I accept the fate I was given...ABSOLUTELY!!!

Sometimes God reveals to us why we must suffer, sometimes he does not. It is our job to trust that he has our best interest at heart.

And I am very sorry about your mother. Truly. It sucks to watch someone you love suffer and die.

Edit: spelling

Edited September 12, 2008 by puzzlegirl

[Guest]

I was born with a heart defect. Not just a murmur, but a major deformity. The cardiologists told my parents I would not live to be more than a few weeks old. Of course I confounded them by not only living, but thriving. My pediatric cardiologist who was not a believer, labeled my existance as a "miracle" and used me as an example of the unexplainable in his lectures (he also taught Cariology at KU Med.) Anyhow...growing up agnostic I did not attribute my life as a miracle nor was I thankful to a god (if there was one) for making my heart all out-of-whack so that I wasn't allowed to participate in sports with my friends or my parents wouldn't let me participate in certain activities at school, etc. I was ticked! I was also told that I would never be able to carry a pregnancy and live. Not that I am not able to become pregnant, but the damaging effect that the extra blood volume and pressure it would have on my heart would do irrepairable damage and both the fetus and myself would likely die. Little did I know then that God had created me with that heart defect for a purpose! Indeed, when I married and it was time for us to start a family we mourned over the loss of the biological children we would never create, then we walked into the adoption agency. Today I praise God that I was "fearfully and wonderfully made" because my defect that brought me "light and momentary suffering" achieved for me an eternal blessing: my two adopted sons. Had I not had this heart defect I would not have these boys who I love more than my very life. I believe with everything in my heart that I was created for these boys and these boys were created for me.

Sometimes God reveals to us why we must suffer, sometimes he does not. It is our job to trust that he has our best interest at heart.

Edit: spelling

Thats the way i feel every moment of my life. Even though i suffer through alot i still think God has some purpose for it, and in that way he makes me stronger. Even as a child i was 3 months premature... i was an alien, see through skin, closed eyes, so tiny i could pretty much fit in your hand. 2 pounds of meat my mum always told me... two pounds of meat i didnt raise you for nothing. She is right though, and those days they were scared ever single second that i would die. But i lived through it to tell the tale. Now i cannot compare to a bad heart or being deaf... but my blood does have a tinge of uniqueness to it. It is different from the rest, of how i am not totally sure, NEITHER THE DOCTORS! Thats what scares me the most, but hey i am living as we speak and i cannot complain.

[Guest]

I was born with a heart defect. Not just a murmur, but a major deformity. The cardiologists told my parents I would not live to be more than a few weeks old. Of course I confounded them by not only living, but thriving. My pediatric cardiologist who was not a believer, labeled my existance as a "miracle" and used me as an example of the unexplainable in his lectures (he also taught Cariology at KU Med.) Anyhow...growing up agnostic I did not attribute my life as a miracle nor was I thankful to a god (if there was one) for making my heart all out-of-whack so that I wasn't allowed to participate in sports with my friends or my parents wouldn't let me participate in certain activities at school, etc. I was ticked! I was also told that I would never be able to carry a pregnancy and live. Not that I am not able to become pregnant, but the damaging effect that the extra blood volume and pressure it would have on my heart would do irrepairable damage and both the fetus and myself would likely die. Little did I know then that God had created me with that heart defect for a purpose! Indeed, when I married and it was time for us to start a family we mourned over the loss of the biological children we would never create, then we walked into the adoption agency. Today I praise God that I was "fearfully and wonderfully made" because my defect that brought me "light and momentary suffering" achieved for me an eternal blessing: my two adopted sons. Had I not had this heart defect I would not have these boys who I love more than my very life. I believe with everything in my heart that I was created for these boys and these boys were created for me. So if I had the choice, would I accept the fate I was given...ABSOLUTELY!!!

Sometimes God reveals to us why we must suffer, sometimes he does not. It is our job to trust that he has our best interest at heart.

And I am very sorry about your mother. Truly. It sucks to watch someone you love suffer and die.

Edit: spelling

Oh she's not going to die, she's too stubborn...

But the suffering gets to me. i feel pretty much helpless.

[Guest]

Oh she's not going to die, she's too stubborn...

But the suffering gets to me. i feel pretty much helpless.

maybe that helplessness will bring you to a point of humility and that humility will soften your heart and that soft heart will allow God to take residence...then there is a DIVINE PURPOSE for her suffering!!

[Guest]

I don't know about you, Martini, but I personally think this thread could use a little more cowbell!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhSkRHXTKlw

Edit: how's that for veering WAY off topic. But not really...since I "Don't Fear the Reeper!!"

Edited September 12, 2008 by puzzlegirl

[Guest]

maybe that helplessness will bring you to a point of humility and that humility will soften your heart and that soft heart will allow God to take residence...then there is a DIVINE PURPOSE for her suffering!!

Doubtful haha, I'm just as stubborn as she is.

[Guest]

Thats the way i feel every moment of my life. Even though i suffer through alot i still think God has some purpose for it, and in that way he makes me stronger. Even as a child i was 3 months premature... i was an alien, see through skin, closed eyes, so tiny i could pretty much fit in your hand. 2 pounds of meat my mum always told me... two pounds of meat i didnt raise you for nothing. She is right though, and those days they were scared ever single second that i would die. But i lived through it to tell the tale. Now i cannot compare to a bad heart or being deaf... but my blood does have a tinge of uniqueness to it. It is different from the rest, of how i am not totally sure, NEITHER THE DOCTORS! Thats what scares me the most, but hey i am living as we speak and i cannot complain.

That is a cool story! I love to hear of people like me who defy science!

[Guest]

That is a cool story! I love to hear of people like me who defy science!

I def give both of y'all props for surviving things like that. makes me feel lucky

[Guest]

ADParker, I know you can't please everyone, but I found the picture you inserted to be very offensive and unnecissary. Just to answer your question.

'If you don't wish to answer my questions, then don't, no biggie. By the way; what exactly was it that you found to be:

1. "Atheistic Propaganda"

I'll try to keep quiet about things like this from now on, because you do have just as much of a right to post here as anyone else. But for the sake of the discussion, lets not get in a religious debate.

It looks like we are on the topic of suffering right now and I think it has been explained very fairly. Human suffering does not eliminate the possibility of god, in many ways, it can support it. Does anyone have anything else to add to this or shall we move on?

[Guest]

It looks like we are on the topic of suffering right now and I think it has been explained very fairly. Human suffering does not eliminate the possibility of god, in many ways, it can support it. Does anyone have anything else to add to this or shall we move on?

It may not eliminate the possibility of 'God'. But it also doesn't prove it either. If anything birth defects and such can be explained in much more detail using science rather than incorporating God into it.

[Guest]

It may not eliminate the possibility of 'God'. But it also doesn't prove it either. If anything birth defects and such can be explained in much more detail using science rather than incorporating God into it.

I don't think any of us will refute that. I think EJL was just saying that you cannot DISPROVE God with the "suffering" argument.

[Guest]

I don't think any of us will refute that. I think EJL was just saying that you cannot DISPROVE God with the "suffering" argument.

Then he should be more specific

Wow that was very hypocritical of me

[Guest]

Human suffering is often used by philosophers as a reason against the existence of god. After reading the posts about heart defects, premature babies, and hearing loss, I believe it is safe to assume that we do not feel that human suffering disproves god or can even be used as an arguement against god (to be more specific).

There has also been a lot of talk about rationalism and reason and their affects on the belief in a creator. Shall this be our next topic?

Lets start by defining both terms, as well as a definition of the philosophical practice of Rationalism. I'll let you all start (mostly because I dont have the time right now).

[unreality]

I'd say, from an unbiased point of view (not thinking in either direction), that the so-called "problem of evil" is the biggest thorn in most religions' sides, and keeps a lot of people away. Yes of course it can't disprove a god (could be an evil god too), but on hand they preach goodness, on the other hand there is suffering, and they also preach hell. I think this (the problem of evil) deters a lot of people, since it's not explained very accurately. I understand that it has small effect on the reality of a higher being, but for most people that don't give it much thought, the suffering part is a big deal and seems to make most people wary of religion - as they should be, but for different reasons.

Just an insight on some of my thoughts, most theists will probably agree

[Guest]

true. The idea of evil is a deterant (sp?), but what are your feelings of good? One cannot exisit without the other, which I might be wrong about. If you can look at something and say its good, then doesnt there have to be evil, or at least bad? If there were no evil, and no bad, then wouldnt everything be good, and we wouldnt even have the notion of the idea of good, it would be normal?

[Guest]

Human suffering is often used by philosophers as a reason against the existence of god. After reading the posts about heart defects, premature babies, and hearing loss, I believe it is safe to assume that we do not feel that human suffering disproves god or can even be used as an arguement against god (to be more specific).

There has also been a lot of talk about rationalism and reason and their affects on the belief in a creator. Shall this be our next topic?

Lets start by defining both terms, as well as a definition of the philosophical practice of Rationalism. I'll let you all start (mostly because I dont have the time right now).

Right, I'm nto saying that this suffering disproves God, just that if there is all-loving God , and he is our father, then like a father even if his children go astray for whatever reason, should that love still be unconditional? And shouldn't God protect us from these ailments, being the all-powerful being that the Bible labels him to be?

And if this isn't true then I think the Bible is a bit hypocritical is thy say he's an all-loving God but he lets his children suffer.

[Guest]

true. The idea of evil is a deterant (sp?), but what are your feelings of good? One cannot exisit without the other, which I might be wrong about. If you can look at something and say its good, then doesnt there have to be evil, or at least bad? If there were no evil, and no bad, then wouldnt everything be good, and we wouldnt even have the notion of the idea of good, it would be normal?

I agree with you on that point. Evil cannot exist without good. Because in its purest form Evil is the absence of good and good is the absence of evil. It's like the Yin and the Yang.

[Guest]

I'd say, from an unbiased point of view (not thinking in either direction), that the so-called "problem of evil" is the biggest thorn in most religions' sides...

I get what you're saying and - dare I say - agree. ;D What confused me is that you didn't pose some sort of killer question that was going to wrack my brain and get me running for advil. What an unusual quandry to be in.