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Aaryan

Skulduggery Pleasant Mafia 2: Playing with Fire

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Night 2 ends in 7 hours and 5 minutes.

Are there any questions left regarding the OOA? To me, this is really an OOP with the change that kills can block, since it uses ">" notation. Though there is a question if kills always block or only block lower order actions. OOA says kills block, OOP says they do not.

Spy is on the action list, at the very end. It is a long action list, two lines long on my browser.

Edited by Nana7

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@Nana i mostly agree with your assessment except for two things

1) OOP allows for a kill to be blocking so Imma see it as straight OOP (with the host declaring kills are blocking)

B) Aaryan said its timeline based, so that changes things.

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Night 2 ends in 7 hours and 5 minutes.

thank you for clearing that up !! :)

Spy is on the action list, at the very end. It is a long action list, two lines long on my browser.

yup thanks... my bad.... both spy actions were was hidden in my xls :D

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OOA:

Redirect > RID Recruit > Save > [baddie NK] > Goodie RID Kill > Baddie RID Kill > Indy RID Kill > Steal > Goodie Block > Baddie Block > Indy Block > Trap > Indy NK > Baddie Spy > Goodie Spy

^ The published OOA ^

There's no point in listing spies separately. They don't change actions. Clause: "For like actions making a loop, the subset of Goodie > Baddie > Indy is used."

(I'm parsing your OOA without making any actual changes...like reducing a fraction). Because of > instead of >>, the Save and Baddie NK can be moved all the way to the right. EDM was killed N1, so I removed her NK completely. If the NK is blocking (and can't be blocked, I can put it up front and make it strong. Query: If Finbar steals an action, does the action he receive use the OOA entry for "Steal" or for the action that the stole? If it's for the action that he stole, we can move/group steal with spy. NK now only refers to the baddie group ability (as it should--another discussion for some other day).

Updating OOA (without actually changing the way actions affect each other):

OOA:

NK >> Redirect > RID Recruit > RID Kill > Steal > Block > Trap > Spy > Save > [NK]

For like action loops, always use Goodie > Baddie > Indy

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OOA:

Redirect > RID Recruit > Save > [baddie NK] > Goodie RID Kill > Baddie RID Kill > Indy RID Kill > Steal > Goodie Block > Baddie Block > Indy Block > Trap > Indy NK > Baddie Spy > Goodie Spy

^ The published OOA ^

There's no point in listing spies separately. They don't change actions. Clause: "For like actions making a loop, the subset of Goodie > Baddie > Indy is used."

(I'm parsing your OOA without making any actual changes...like reducing a fraction). Because of > instead of >>, the Save and Baddie NK can be moved all the way to the right. EDM was killed N1, so I removed her NK completely. If the NK is blocking (and can't be blocked, I can put it up front and make it strong. Query: If Finbar steals an action, does the action he receive use the OOA entry for "Steal" or for the action that the stole? If it's for the action that he stole, we can move/group steal with spy. NK now only refers to the baddie group ability (as it should--another discussion for some other day).

Updating OOA (without actually changing the way actions affect each other):

OOA:

NK >> Redirect > RID Recruit > RID Kill > Steal > Block > Trap > Spy > Save > [NK]

For like action loops, always use Goodie > Baddie > Indy

I agree with you Molly in all but one aspect : if you put SAVE at the end.. while initially was in the beginning (after recruit) then save would only "block" the baddie group NK.

If it's left where it was then it should also save from any RID KILL ...

question to hosts :

SAVE (and for that matter the save from the trap as well) saves from ANY KILL or only the baddie group ability ?

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Two more OOA queries: If G, B, and I (indicative of their faction) are all RID Killers and G targets B who targets I who targets G (and all are successful), who dies?

If you can see the paradox, hurray!

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I agree with you Molly in all but one aspect : if you put SAVE at the end.. while initially was in the beginning (after recruit) then save would only "block" the baddie group NK.

If it's left where it was then it should also save from any RID KILL ...

question to hosts :

SAVE (and for that matter the save from the trap as well) saves from ANY KILL or only the baddie group ability ?

I disagree. Because > is used instead of >>, the save can still change the action of anything that precedes it. If the host used >> it would be as you say it is.

EDIT: But it does change one situation: If A RID Kills B who RID Kills C who Saves B. There are different outcomes from moving the save if the save saves from RID Kills. EDIT3: But only if A > B in the subset.

EDIT2: Actually, only if...I think I caused a paradox that can't be fixed by >....

Edited by Molly Mae

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I see no reason why a save would not save from a rid kill, since nothing explicitly says no in the OP and a kill is a kill in my mind.

If G,B,I all rid kill each other, G gets priority so B dies and does not act. I then gets to kill G, who has already acted but can still die.

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I see no reason why a save would not save from a rid kill, since nothing explicitly says no in the OP and a kill is a kill in my mind.

If G,B,I all rid kill each other, G gets priority so B dies and does not act. I then gets to kill G, who has already acted but can still die.

As I expected. Patch is below.

OOA:

NK >> Redirect > RID Recruit > RID Kill > Steal > Block > Trap > Spy > Save > [NK]

For like action loops, always use Goodie >> Baddie >> Indy

Just changed subset to strong.

Steal placement? Because it's in the OOA, I can make a few assumptions: If Finbar is blocked, he may again attempt to steal the role he was blocked from stealing (since the steal would be blocked and not the actual action that he stole). That means that if he stole a block and used it on the trapper who tried to trap Finbar, the trapper would be blocked and Finbar's action would go through. If he stole the trap and trapped the blocker who tried to block Finbar, Finbar would be blocked and could attempt to steal the trap again in the future.

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Okay, so if Finbar steals a trap on a given night, the OOA from your perspective is:

OOA:

NK >> Redirect > RID Recruit > RID Kill > Finbar's Trap > Block > Trap > Spy > Save > [NK]

For like action loops, always use Goodie >> Baddie >> Indy

If that's right, then the OOA has been properly parsed.

Another Save scenario I missed is self-saving. If the host allows it (and I'm assuming it's allowed), A Killing B + B Saving B = B is saved (counter to OOA, but usually a special provision in the "Additional Rules" section of the OP).

Edit: Pyramid. (Sorry, mo...)

Edited by Molly Mae

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NK >> Trap > Block > Redirect > RID Recruit > RID Kill > Steal > Spy > Save > [NK]

Okay...you've changed the order of trap and block...

Using: NK >> Redirect > RID Recruit > RID Kill > Steal > Trap > Block > Spy > Save > [NK]

Blocks and traps can still stop a redirect or a RID Recruit or a RID Kill. The only time OOA is used is for loops.

Let me ask you this: When you get all of the actions in at the end of the night, how do you write the post? Do you write all of the blocks in first?

The difference between (1) Block > Redirect and (2) Redirect > Block is the basis for the OOA understanding. In either case, the block can stop the redirector. And in either case, the redirector can change the target of the blocker. The only time OOA comes up is when they target each other. In case (1) the redirector will be blocked. In case (2) the block will be redirected elsewhere.

Now, another basic principle is grouping actions into two kinds: (1) Actions that alter other actions [block, trap, kill, redirect] and (2) Actions that don't alter other actions [spy, steal, save*]. Actions of type (2) can really go anywhere in the OOA when using >, but are typically placed on the right side for consistency. Actions of type (1) are much trickier--they're the ones that can change the whole post if you switch their positions. For example, before the change: If A RID Kills B and B blocks A, B is killed and the block is not evaluated. Now: A is blocked and B lives.

*save is a special exception to the category, since he is targeting someone else's target (and not the original actor).

Another query regarding the RID Recruit: Does it alter actions? If no, you can move it anywhere you want and it won't change anything at all (so it would typically be placed all the way on the right--probably right before save). If it does alter other actions, what actions does it alter? I already know the answer to this question, so it should stay above that action on the OOA.

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So, anyone wanna help the goodies ??

Except baddies, of course :P

It's night. I'm only talking to clarify some things. =/

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"

The difference between (1) Block > Redirect and (2) Redirect > Block is the basis for the OOA understanding. In either case, the block can stop the redirector. And in either case, the redirector can change the target of the blocker. The only time OOA comes up is when they target each other. In case (1) the redirector will be blocked. In case (2) the block will be redirected elsewhere.

"

this was my understanding as well using the '>' sign.... which is why I said that in this case Maurice and Shakura (in this particular case) could have acted while/before being trapped/blocked:

JUST AS AN EXAMPLE:

in case Maurice is sprinheeled jack(a RID KILLer) and RID KILL > Trap (as it was before this discussion) then he could have acted (killed) EDM and the get trapped by bliss, because he did not act on BLISS (on his trapper)

NVM .. I think I finally get it .. a block STOPS his target from acting unless that target acts on the blocker and his action is higher !!!

Edited by Yodell

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NVM .. I think I finally get it .. a block STOPS his target from acting unless that target acts on the blocker and his action is higher !!!

Right you are, miss. =P

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YOU ARE HURTING MY TINY BRAIN!

I know how you feel. There's like a floodgate of understanding--once you break it, it's a head-slapper.

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