Evidence of God's Design

[Guest]

Twist what others have said all you want, none of you have made any sense to me either. Nothing of fact in your defence. Nothing, name one. One fact that proves that life was not created by an intelligent being Namely God. That is Jesus to me. Bring something, anyone. Your faith in NO gods is equally as strong as my faith in the One True God.

[Guest]

Brilliant, now tell me how close each planet gets to the Sun compared to the most distant it gets.

All the other planets could be close to a circle, THAT IS NOT THE POINT, man can't you guys read? The point was the farthest that the Earth gets from the sun compared to the closest. Those TWO DISTANCES ARE ALMOST THE SAME! Did you get the point that time. A circular orbit is NOT the point. If Mars has a circular orbit around the sun and the closest it gets is 10 feet away from the Suns surface, and the most distant point is 60 feet away, well that's a Big difference. The circle is not the point! Okay make it easy for you The Sun is in the center of the circle, and the Earth goes around it, and all 360 degrees of its journey it (being the Earth) is pretty stinkin equal. Get it that time?

[Guest]

I didn't necessarily say there can be no evidence for creation, i just said there is no irrefutable proof. Evidence is left up to interpretation and where human experience differs, interpreation also will differ. As I stated, we are all working with the same facts and it is up to each individuals mind as to what these facts prove.

In example, you took my post to be evidence that your argument is correct. The same can be said for hambone. Each of you took the same facts presented in my statement to back up your side of the story because each of you found truth relevant to your way of thinking. All I stated were facts, you each took the facts and interpreted them to prove your own case.

Mevuc, If you look at the following post after I said great post you will realize that I did not agree with you or your post, just in the way you worded it. As in this post, Great Post very non-confrontational, still make your point and not be nasty. Unlike my last post where I am getting a little tired of people reading what I post and seeing something different, then saying I don't have a clue as to what I'm talking about. When in reality I'm not sure a lot of you know what your talking about. Sounds like first year stuff from college that everyone is basing their opinion on and some not even that with exception of a couple.

[Guest]

Okay, little lack of patience on my part, The Earth's orbit explained a little more in detail. If our Earth were located much farther away from our Sun, we would experience temperatures such as the minus 70 degrees F. measured on the planet Mars, and we would freeze. If the Earth were much closer to the Sun, then we would have temperatures like the extremely hot surface of Mercury or the 860 degree F. temperature on Venus, and we would burn up. Our Earth's orbit is very unusual and it makes life possible on our home planet. All of the other planets in our solar system have orbits that take them much further away from the Sun for part of their orbit and much closer to the Sun for the other part of their orbit. If our Earth followed an orbit as the other planets in our solar system do, life would be impossible because it would be too cold for part of the year and far to hot the other part of the year. Our unique orbit keeps us 93 million miles from the Sun. Precisely the right distance to maintain the temperature range conducive to life.

[Guest]

Another point, That I believe is evidence of an Intelligent Being, you will find something here to shoot holes in too I suppose. It's WATER. Simple right.

The astronomer John D. Barrow has written about the significance of the Anthropic Principle. he noted that water, one of the most vital elements in the existence for all life, is an incredibly unusual and unlikely element to have formed in our Universe unless it were purposely designed by God. He wrote: "Water is actually one of the strangest substances known to science. This may seem a rather odd thing to say about a substance as familiar but it is surely true. Its specific heat, its surface tension, and most of its other physical properties have values anomalously higher or lower than those of any other known material. The fact that its solid phase is less dense than its liquid phase (ice floats) is virtually a unique property. The fact that ice floats allows aquatic life to exist in cold temperature zones. These aspects or the chemical and physical structure of water have been noted before, for instance by the authors of Bridgewater Treatises in the 1830s and by Henderson in 1913, who also pointed out that these strange properties make water a uniquely useful liquid and that basis for living things. John D. Barrow and Frank J. Tipler, THE ANTHROPIC COSMOLOGICAL PRINCIPLE, 1986, Oxford University Press: Oxford UK, 1996, reprint, p. 524.

If water as a solid (ice) were not less dense than as a liquid, ice would not float. Without this unique quality marine life would die as water would freeze from the bottom and kill all aquatic creatures in cold climates. Water is the most abundant substance on the Earth's surface and is essential for all life. The proteins and nucleic acids in DNA that govern all life could not exist without the unique qualities of WATER.

Edited July 15, 2010 by hambone

[unreality]

here are some more facts for you:

* there are certain constants of physics (N, epsilon, omega, lambda, Q, D (according to Martin Rees) but "The standard model of particle physics has about 26 freely adjustable parameters. ") that, if they were slightly different, would not even allow basic chemistry to exist (let alone organic chemistry that powers the carbon-based life we have here on Earth)

* the earth is in the "goldilocks zone", aka a zone perfect for life - at the right temperature for all the ingredients necessary for life on earth to exist

* " If the universe were one tenth as old as its present age, there would not have been sufficient time to build up appreciable levels of metallicity (levels of elements besides hydrogen and helium) especially carbon, by nucleosynthesis. Small rocky planets did not yet exist. If the universe were 10 times older than it actually is, most stars would be too old to remain on the main sequence and would have turned into white dwarfs, aside from the dimmest red dwarfs, and stable planetary systems would have already come to an end."

* "The observed values of the dimensionless physical constants (such as the fine-structure constant) governing the four fundamental interactions are balanced as if fine-tuned to permit the formation of commonly found matter and subsequently the emergence of life. A slight increase in the strong nuclear force would bind the dineutron and the diproton, and nuclear fusion would have converted all hydrogen in the early universe to helium. Water and the long-lived stable stars essential for the emergence of life would not exist. More generally, small changes in the relative strengths of the four fundamental interactions can greatly affect the universe's age, structure, and capacity for life."

* However, many of the fundamental constants describe the properties of the unstable strange, charmed, bottom and top quarks and mu and tau leptons which seem to play little part in the universe or the structure of matter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tuned_Universe

* "Carter) WAP = “We must be prepared to take account of the fact that our location in the universe is necessarily privileged to the extent of being compatible with our existence as observers.”

(Carter) SAP = “The Universe (and hence the fundamental parameters on which it depends) must be such as to admit the creation of observers within it at some stage. To paraphrase Descartes, cogito ergo mundus talis est. [i think, therefore the world is such as it is.]”" (http://machineslikeus.com/news/anthropic-principle)

~~~~~~~~~

hambone, we could go on all day and list facts about how the universe seems fine-tuned to support life.

The problems is we interpret these same facts differently. Read this again:

* the earth is in the "goldilocks zone", aka a zone perfect for life - at the right temperature for all the ingredients necessary for life on earth to exist

Don't you see the anthropic principle here? The necessary conditions are perfect on Earth for life... so, no surprise, there's life on Earth. Say that the odds are 1 to a bazillion that the conditions would be so perfect to support life let alone advanced thinking creatures like Homo Sapiens.

Therefore about 1 in a bazillion planets will have thinking creatures like homo sapiens. All other planets won't so nobody will be there to think about how likely it was that they didn't exist. Everyone on a planet with life will think "huh WHAT ARE THE ODDS" like you are doing.

For example, say you get randomly assigned a number between 1 and a billion. You get assigned 438164.

You immediately shout: "WHOA! WHAT ARE THE CHANCES THAT I WOULD HAVE GOTTEN THE NUMBER 438164?"

Someone replies: "1 in a BILLION!"

You shout back: "NO WAY! HOW UNLIKELY! THE UNIVERSE/NUMBERCONTEST MUST HAVE BEEN FINE TUNED TO GIVE ME THE NUMBER 438164!"

Of course maybe it was such fine-tuned.

The point is that it's impossible to know. There could be millions of independent dimensionless physics constants and all of them are spot on to lead to life as it is. There's no way to know whether it happened by random chance and we are only thinking about it because it happened (in other words, obviously everything is perfect at this moment of spacetime because otherwise we wouldn't be alive to think about it) because there is some mulitude of universes and in 999999999999....99999 out of a bazillion of them, there is no life nor even basic chemistry, therefore nobody in them to think, with the occasional 1 out a bazillion universe in which the people are alive to think about how well it turned out for them. Another possibility is that life arises out of complex systems no matter initial constants, it's just the form of life that changes. For example non-carbon non-water based life forms, etc.

So the more facts you list about how perfect the universe seems for life (our type of life that arose BECAUSE of those random 'perfections') you're digging a hole deeper and deeper. You need to realize that the facts you are using fit perfectly into my own conception of the universe. Without faith, but reason. My own mind plus my experiences and consistent senses of the world

[Guest]

Awesome post, now come on, you have to admit even if you look at all these things differently these are the points I would bring up as points of Divine Design. It's okay if you don't see that. In the beginning of the thread I said debate all you want, that is perfectly okay, You can't change my mind as I cannot change yours but the intellectual stimulation in a topic like this is what I enjoy. You have to admit it is a fun topic if we all keep our cool.

* "The observed values of the dimensionless physical constants (such as the fine-structure constant) governing the four fundamental interactions are balanced as if fine-tuned to permit the formation of commonly found matter and subsequently the emergence of life. A slight increase in the strong nuclear force would bind the dineutron and the diproton, and nuclear fusion would have converted all hydrogen in the early universe to helium. Water and the long-lived stable stars essential for the emergence of life would not exist. More generally, small changes in the relative strengths of the four fundamental interactions can greatly affect the universe's age, structure, and capacity for life."

Great paragraph by the way.

Hey unreality does it bother you at all that these things are evidence to me that My God Exists

[Guest]

Although there is only one thing I disagree with in your last post unreality and that is the one of me digging a hole deeper and deeper. Everything else was awesome. Dude, I believed in God and His Son, before I ever started learning and studying stuff like this. I did not use any of these points to be a reason to believe. They just make my belief stronger.

Oh, and just a thought, 1 in a bazillion zillion chance of all these things happening so that we can have this debate or whatever you want to call it. What do you think the odds are that the Bible is true. That has been part of my point as well. The faith it takes for you to say hey we got so flipp'n lucky for all these things to just happen for me to be here debating with hambone, is not more ridiculous that me saying I believe in God created the Heavens and the Earth.

Edited July 15, 2010 by hambone

[unreality]

Awesome post, now come on, you have to admit even if you look at all these things differently these are the points I would bring up as points of Divine Design. It's okay if you don't see that.

Oh I absolutely realize that. I was just stepping in to show that the facts can be interpreted in two different ways, both equally valid, hence such facts are not sufficient to prove either way. The idea was to get you to stop posting these things about how everything seems fine-tuned. Just like how earlier I posted about how the creation and complexity arguments cannot prove anything either way either and are both equally valid in two different directions (actually those are in favor of the atheistic side but I won't get into that because you wouldn't believe me, and still aren't 100% proof of atheism either though).

My point is that these are NOT the reasons you believe because I see them and marvel at the awesomeness of the universe and reason and logic and you see them and marvel at God.

Therefore what I'm trying to say is please stop posting these facts because I can post the same facts too to support me. In other words they are not the true reason either of us lean the way we lean. So get down to it:

I believed in God and His Son, before I ever started learning and studying stuff like this. I did not use any of these points to be a reason to believe

they only "make my belief stronger" as you say because you already have the bias. So humor me. See the quote above? Why did you "start believing in God and His Son"? Were you raised into a religious family?

[Guest]

Don't go to far unreality, couple more things that blow my mind are coming.

[Guest]

No, Do you want to here this story or just bust'n my ba**s?

[unreality]

Don't go to far unreality, couple more things that blow my mind are coming.

I hope your faith isn't so weak that you're searching the internet to find reasons to believe in god Cmon, why do you really believe? Why did you start believing in the first place? Were you raised into a religious family?

edit: oh if it's a personal story then i'd very much like to hear it

Edited July 15, 2010 by unreality

[Guest]

Don't need to search the internet. you want to hear this on this thread, and if I shared this with you I would not appreciate it if it were thrown in my face.

[unreality]

Don't need to search the internet. you want to hear this on this thread, and if I shared this with you I would not appreciate it if it were thrown in my face.

if you'd feel more comfortable you can PM it to me or something. But most people here on Brainden are respectful of others' personal stories even if it led the person to conclusions we may not have made I as an atheist understand and accept that people go through experiences that convince them (probably falsely, but again, no way to be sure) of the existence of 1 or more gods

[Guest]

Got to a place in my life, (after 12 years of being off of drugs and alcohol, So no LSD involved or anything else) that I never thought I would get. Where you had just about everything you could ask for, and lose it all. That was not what was what brought me to the Lord though. Being a drummer, signed making money playing the drums, women, drugs, then lose all of that. Okay no big deal, move on, play for other bands but getting older. So played mostly major city night clubs from New Hampshire to Florida, still doing what I loved to do. There is something about being on stage, that if you have never been there you can't explain it. I'm 43 now. In 1996, the band I played for stayed mostly in Florida. It disbanded, had a nice house on the end of a dead-end road looking out over Tampa Bay. Fishing off of the sea wall on day a old women walked past me and simply said "Jesus is coming back soon"I thought to myself for a second "Whaco", kept fishing. By the way the house I was in I rented, (wasn't the person to plant in one place for too long) the owner of that house sold the land.

You interested in this really?

[unreality]

You interested in this really?

yes! more than you know

[Guest]

Why? Not that I don't think your interested, you said more than I know. Why do you want to here this unreality. It is somewhat of a long story.

Edited July 15, 2010 by hambone

[unreality]

Why? Not that I don't think your interested, you said more than I know. Why do you want to here this unreality. It is somewhat of a long story.

because I'm interested in what made you change your mind (assuming you weren't religious before?)

[Guest]

Look, it's 12:30 my time I have to be at a meeting at 10:00 a.m. tomorrow. You let me know at least why you are so interested and I will finish this tomorrow.

Do you mind if I finish this story later, I did not realize it was 12:30.

Edited July 15, 2010 by hambone

[unreality]

Look, it's 12:30 my time I have to be at a meeting at 10:00 a.m. tomorrow. You let me know at least why you are so interested and I will finish this tomorrow.

see above post. I believe that in life we go through certain transitional moments (at first depressing, then revelatory) not necessarily always about big important things but basically i'm just curious what made you change your mind (again assuming you were nonreligious before)

[Guest]

because I'm interested in what made you change your mind (assuming you weren't religious before?)

That's just it, I'm not religious now. It's a relationship. Big difference.

[unreality]

ok so before you had this experience though you had no relationship with god? (or from your current perspective, a relationship but one in which you were unwilling, unknowing or unwanting?)

ie did you or did you not believe in god before the events of this story?

[Guest]

I had accually said out of my own mouth that there was no god. looked into Taoism a little but not as a god.

[Guest]

Tomorrow unreality, it is late. Dude I have responsibilities. Not that I think this is not important, but first things first.

[unreality]

Tomorrow unreality, it is late. Dude I have responsibilities. Not that I think this is not important, but first things first.

yeah for sure. I nor Brainden will go anywhere Believe it or not I have other things to do too Good luck in your meeting

[edit - typo]

Edited July 15, 2010 by unreality