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Weighing in a Harder Way Rate Topic: ****- 2 Votes

#1 User is offline   wangsacl Icon

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Posted 18 June 2007 - 05:03 AM

You've got 27 coin, each of them is 10 g, except for 1. The 1 different coins has a masses different. It could be 9 g, or 11 g (heavier, or lighter by 1 g).
The question is, in how many minimum ways, you can determine the different coins, and is it heavier, or lighter?
I have no answer to this question.
Do you?
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#2 User is offline   mdsl Icon

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Posted 18 June 2007 - 01:53 PM

Assuming you have a simple scale, my answer is 9.

First divide the coins into 3 piles of 9.

Measure 2 piles at a time until you find the pair that is equal in mass. This can take up to 3 tries, but if you were lucky you could get it on the first try.

Put the piles of coins with equal mass to the side.

Repeat the process this time with 3 piles of 3 coins, maximum 3 measurements.

Repeat the process this time with the 3 remaining coins, find the two that are equal, the remaining coin has a different mass.

If you are a very luck person you coulp potentially only have to make 4 meaurements, 3 to rule out equal pairs and 1 to compare the final coin to the rest.

9 is the most you would have to do the efficient way, and at any point you can observe is the unequal pile has more or less mass.
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#3 User is offline   CedricLi Icon

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 12:28 PM

I guess the question is lack of some information such as, by using a scale with weight of 1g, 2g, 5g, and 10g, isn't it?
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#4 User is offline   bonanova Icon

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 05:14 PM

View PostCedricLi, on Jan 16 2008, 06:28 AM, said:

I guess the question is lack of some information such as, by using a scale with weight of 1g, 2g, 5g, and 10g, isn't it?

It's a balance scale that compares what's in the two pans.
You can get the answer by just comparing groups of coins.
The greatest challenge to any thinker is stating the problem in a way that will allow a solution. - Bertrand Russell
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#5 User is offline   bonanova Icon

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 07:21 PM

Duplicate post.
Looking around the forum for an eraser ... <_<
The greatest challenge to any thinker is stating the problem in a way that will allow a solution. - Bertrand Russell
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#6 User is offline   PDR Icon

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 01:05 AM


Spoiler for fewer than 9...:

1-9 vs 10-18
-if it balances, the odd one is in 19-27
-if it doesn't balance:






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#7 User is offline   PDR Icon

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 01:05 AM


Spoiler for fewer than 9...:

1-9 vs 10-18
-if it balances, the odd one is in 19-27
-if it doesn't balance:






How do you tell when you are out of invisible ink?
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#8 User is offline   PDR Icon

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 01:28 AM

sorry - accidentally hit submit - here's my answer...

Spoiler for fewer than 9...:
this can be done in 5 weighings:

weigh coins [1-9] vs [10-18] (ie coins 1 thru 9 on one side, coins 10 thru 18 on the other)
if it balances, the odd one is in 19-27
if it doesn't balance, weigh [1-9] vs [19-27]
-if it balances, the odd one is in 10-18
-if it doesn't balance, the odd one is in 1-9

after 2 weighings we know which group of 9 has the odd one and weather the odd coin is heavier or lighter than the others. For the remainder of the explanation, I'll assume it's in group 1-9, but the logic will work for either of the other groups.

weigh [1-5] vs [6-9 and 27] (ie coins 1 thru 5 on one side, 6 thru 9 and 27 on the other. For this example, know #27 is ok, if the odd one is in the 19-27 group, we'd pick one of the good coins from another group to include instead)
after the 2nd weighing we learned whether to look for heavier or lighter group, so pick either 1-5 or 6-9 as having the odd coin based on heavy vs light
whichever group the odd one is in, weigh 2 coins vs 2 coins
for example for 1-5, weigh [1-2] vs [3-4] - if they balance its #5, if not pick the correct side based on heavier or lighter learned in weigh #2 and weigh them against each other
alternatively, if it's in 6-9, weigh [6-7] vs [8-9], pick the heavier or lighter pair based on weigh #2 and weigh them against each other.
This process should work regardless of which one it is, and whether it's lighter or heavier.

How do you tell when you are out of invisible ink?
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#9 User is offline   Jkyle1980 Icon

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 04:24 AM

I think I've got it in 4 measurements:

Separate the coins into 3 stacks of 9 (A, B, C). Weigh stack A against B and then A against C. Take the stack with the different weight (note lighter or heavier) and break it into 3 stacks of 3 (D, E, F). Weigh stack D against E. If D and E are equal, then F is the odd stack. If D and E are not equal, the lighter or heavier (based on the A, B, C comparison) is the odd stack. You now have three coins (G, H, I). Weigh G and H. If G equals H, then I is the odd and is lighter or heavier (based on the A, B, C comparison). If G and H are not equal, then the lighter or heavier (based on the A, B, C comparison) is the odd coin.
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#10 User is offline   bonanova Icon

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 06:49 PM

Jkyle1980's solution is correct, and much less verbose than what follows.

You can distinguish among 3**N cases in N weighings.
There are 54 possible cases in this puzzle [one of 27 coins is heavy or light].
So three weighings [27 cases] won't do it, but four [81 cases] can.

Spoiler for Here's a very slightly modified approach:
Use Jkyle1980's groups of nine coins: A, B, C.

[1] A = B: C has a heavy or light coin [18 cases]
[2] A < B: A has a light coin or B has a heavy coin [18 cases]
[3] A > B: A has a heavy coin or B has a light coin [18 cases]

[1] Split C into groups of three coins: C1, C2, C3 and weigh C1 vs. C2.

C1 = C2: C3 has a heavy or light coin [6 cases] Name the C3 coins c3a, c3b, c3c.
c3a = c3b: if c3a </> c3c, then c3c is the heavy / light coin.
c3a < c3b: if c3a </= c3c, then c3a is light / c3b is heavy.
c3a > c3b: if c3a =/> c3c, then c3b is light / c3a is heavy.

C1 < C2: C1 has a light coin or C2 has a heavy coin [6 cases]
C1 = C3: [C2>C1=C3] C2 has a heavy coin.
Procedure 1:
Name the coins c2a, c2b, c2c.
c2a = c2b: c2c is heavy
c2a < c2b: c2b is heavy
c2a > c2b: c2a is heavy

C1 < C3: [C2>C1<C3] C1 has a light coin. Apply Procedure 1 to determine the light coin.
C1 > C3: [C3>C1>C2] Impossible.

C1 > C2: C1 has a heavy coin or C2 has a light coin [6 cases]
C1 = C3: [C1=C3>C2] C2 has a light coin. Apply Procedure 1 to determine the light coin.
C1 < C3: [C2<C1<C3] C1 Impossible.
C1 > C3: [C2<C1>C3] C1 has a heavy coin. Apply Procedure 1 to determine the heavy coin.

[2] Weigh A vs. C

A = C: [A=C<B] B has a heavy coin [9 cases]
Procedure 2:
Split the B coins into groups of three: B1, B2, B3
B1 = B2: B3 has a heavy coin. Apply procedure 1 to determine which.
B1 < B2: B2 has a heavy coin. Apply procedure 1 to determine which.
B1 > B2: B1 has a heavy coin. Apply procedure 1 to determine which.

A < C: [B>A<C] A has a light coin [9 cases] Apply Procedure 2 to determine which.
A > C: [B>A>C] Impossible

[3] Weigh A vs. C

A = C: [A=C>B] B has a heavy coin [9 cases] Apply Procedure 2 to determine which.
A < C: [B<A<C] Impossible
A > C: [B<A>C] A has a heavy coin [9 cases] Apply Procedure 2 to determine which.

The greatest challenge to any thinker is stating the problem in a way that will allow a solution. - Bertrand Russell
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