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Posted · Report post

As I said, the answer is no brainer, but I was amazed when I put this problem in my class with intelligent student. I had made it simple here, but in the original puzzle, the amount was a little higher and the transaction included couple of items, but I got answers ranging from $10 to $100.

Also, almost majority of my student came up with one answer instinctively and then changed it latter on.

When I gave the puzzle, I had the condition that they could not discuss the answers and logic before hand and they had to write the answers. Once I got the answers, I told them that each one has to pick someone who had a different answer, argue their logic and come up with unanimous answer. Then that group merges with group with the same answer and picks another group with different answer and try to come up with one answer. This continues till the entire class comes to one solution. It took more than two hours for a group of 20 students (management class)

Brhan intially got $4 then changed to $10

NoOct intially got $20 then changed to $10

Smokiecat intitally got $14 then changed to $10

Scraff, redshift, niner, itachi-san, eventhorizon, imran, ash013 all got $10

Do I still need to spell out the answer ?...

Thanks

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Posted · Report post

If the system works correctly, either Mr X would be brought back to pay with real currency, or arrested. Question: Did mr Y get the $10 bill before he handed over the $5s?

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Posted · Report post

HILLARIOUS!!

i was in with NoOct at $20 to begin with, glad that i read the rest of the posts before posting this and now smarter for doing so

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Posted · Report post

If the system works correctly, either Mr X would be brought back to pay with real currency, or arrested. Question: Did mr Y get the $10 bill before he handed over the $5s?

Mr. X walked away, so no way to bring him back.

Mr. Y just took the $10 (fake one) and passed it to his assistant, who gave it to Mr. Z to get change. Mr. Z took it in and gave two $5 in return. Afterwards, he noticed that the $10 passed along was a fake and so he went back to the Grocer Mr. Y. Mr. Y being a nice grocer and knowing Mr. Z for a long time, knew he wouldn't be lying just for $10. So he took up that loss and compensated Mr. Z with another (real one) $10. Mr. Z didn't loose anything or gain anything at the end of transaction.

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Posted · Report post

Simplified, but then when I read through and noticed in the OP a grocer selling toothpaste - does that happen?

I get my toothpaste from the grocery store.

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Posted · Report post

I get my toothpaste from the grocery store.

Me too. We don't have those fancy toothpaste stores by me :D

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Posted · Report post

Me too. We don't have those fancy toothpaste stores by me :D

You have a beautiful smile.

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Posted · Report post

Ok ....

X gives Y $10 which he trades with Z

Y gives X $6 back of his own $10 and keeps $4 for the paste

So right now Y + 4

Z comes and Y gives Z 10

Keep in mind monetary is defined by currancy and circulation; not product...

So X is down $6 and the product is irrelivant; I am sure he is insured.

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Posted · Report post

the fake 10 dollar bill came from Mr. X

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Posted · Report post

the fake 10 dollar bill came from Mr. X

ok X trades fake 10 for 2 real 5s - no value loss right now because it hasn't been discovered it's a fake.... even trade

Y keeps a 5 and gives the other 5 and one 1 of his own to X - ((5)+(-1)) = 4

Z discovers the fake and Y gives him $10

Now that everything is out in the open you can do the math

X = ((4)+(-10))

X = -6

The 10 is the cause of it but still a fake and has no value and doesn't exist.

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Posted · Report post

This seems simple, but I am amazed with different answers I receive. Here it is:

A Man (Mr. X) goes to grocer (Mr. Y) to buy a toothpaste. The grocer (Mr. Y) gives Mr. X the toothpaste and says it is $4. Mr. X takes out his wallet and hands him $10 bill. Now the grocer (Mr. Y) checks his cash register and finds that he has few $10 Bills and two $1 bills. So he sends his assistant to the next door shop owner (Mr. Z) to get change. The assistant hands over $10 bill, which he got from Mr. X to Mr. Z. Mr. Z in turn hands him change of two $5 bills. The assistant then hands that over to the Grocer Mr. Y. The Grocer puts one $5 bill back in the cash register, takes out a dollar bill and along with the other $5 bill, he hands $6 back to our customer Mr. X along with the toothpaste. Mr. X walks away. After a few minutes, the next door shop owner Mr. Z turns up at the Grocer Mr. Y and complains that the $10 bill his assistant gave was a fake one and of no use. Mr. Y being a nice grocer apologizes and hands another $10 bill from his cash register to compensate to Mr. Z. So the question is : How much was the monetary loss and to whom ?

From Y's point of view...considering +ve as income and -ve as loss

Y got 0 dollars from X ( as fake dollars have no value)----> 0

Y took 10 dollars from Z in 5+5 (he gave the fake dollarwhich has no value)--->so +10

Y gave 10 dollars to X (6+toothpaste=4)--->So +10-10=0

Y gave 10 dollars back to Z---> 0-10= -10

So the loss is of Mr Y and the amount is 10 $. Its a very old puzzle and first I solved it with two of my brothers with real money, and a piece of paper (written $10 over it). Each of us had 50 $ before solving and after the solution I found I (y) have 40 $ and one of my brothers (x) has 60 $, we replaced the toothpaste with 4$.

But the basic is, net profit of the buyer=net loss of seller...

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Posted · Report post

From Y's point of view...considering +ve as income and -ve as loss

Y got 0 dollars from X ( as fake dollars have no value)----> 0

Y took 10 dollars from Z in 5+5 (he gave the fake dollarwhich has no value)--->so +10

Y gave 10 dollars to X (6+toothpaste=4)--->So +10-10=0

Y gave 10 dollars back to Z---> 0-10= -10

So the loss is of Mr Y and the amount is 10 $. Its a very old puzzle and first I solved it with two of my brothers with real money, and a piece of paper (written $10 over it). Each of us had 50 $ before solving and after the solution I found I (y) have 40 $ and one of my brothers (x) has 60 $, we replaced the toothpaste with 4$.

But the basic is, net profit of the buyer=net loss of seller...

This does not work you put a cost value on an item that you do not know the orginal cost; so you are basing the monetary loss on a product that obviously cost less then person sold it for and his loss would be the cost to buy not to sell; and per definition that is not the question.... so $10 does not work.

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Posted · Report post

What is so interesting is that simple math, and logic become confused, the more simple things are the more it is done to death, long way to go yet I'm sure. How do we know for sure where the fake is from if the grocer 'trusts' the man next door?

Scams all round!

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Posted (edited) · Report post

loss to Mr. Y (the grocer)- 15 dollars. he had to give 5 to Mr Z. he had to give 6 dollars and toothpaste worth 4 dollars to the customer.

thats what i guess :unsure:

Edited by Nayana
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Posted · Report post

Ok ....

X gives Y $10 which he trades with Z

Y gives X $6 back of his own $10 and keeps $4 for the paste

So right now Y + 4

Z comes and Y gives Z 10

Keep in mind monetary is defined by currancy and circulation; not product...

So X is down $6 and the product is irrelivant; I am sure he is insured.

How about the value of the toothpaste. Do you think Mr. Y got it for free? And yet he is going to pay tax assuming he sold it for $4.

So, the total loss on Mr Y must be $6+$4 = $10.

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Posted · Report post

How about the value of the toothpaste. Do you think Mr. Y got it for free? And yet he is going to pay tax assuming he sold it for $4.

So, the total loss on Mr Y must be $6+$4 = $10.

But as a previous poster said (sorry not reading through it all this morning to find it) value is based on what you are out; not what you say you are out because you put X$ value on an item. Do you think if a store made a theft claim on an item to the insurance co that that insurance is going to pay "retail" value on that item because the store would have sold it for that value so that is what they would be out? No...

The claim would be for the purchase price the store paid and since we don't know what that is any value you put on it is speculated. That could have been the promotional bakers dozen free tube of paste and he was out nothing for it or he could have paid $3.99 for it so you do not know...

And what if he lived in Oregon? No sales tax.... Given the information you have and the question at hand; it really isn't relevant. And if Y pays tax on his sales; then all of the loss isn't his because part of the sales price would be tax. It just keeps going; so what you do is quite simple.... follow the MONEY because that is what the problem calls for.

mon·e·tar·y (mn-tr, mn-)

adj.

1. Of or relating to money.

2. Of or relating to a nation's currency or coinage.

10 dollars traded

6 to X

4 to Y

so right now X is up $4 and Z is down 10

10 --> Z puts Z at even and X down $6

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Posted · Report post

But as a previous poster said (sorry not reading through it all this morning to find it) value is based on what you are out; not what you say you are out because you put X$ value on an item. Do you think if a store made a theft claim on an item to the insurance co that that insurance is going to pay "retail" value on that item because the store would have sold it for that value so that is what they would be out? No...

The claim would be for the purchase price the store paid and since we don't know what that is any value you put on it is speculated. That could have been the promotional bakers dozen free tube of paste and he was out nothing for it or he could have paid $3.99 for it so you do not know...

What insurance would pay is irrelevant. What the mark-up on the product is also irrelevant. Assuming the person passed on a counterfeit bill unknowingly, the grocer would have $4 in exchange for the toothpaste. It doesn't matter if it only costs him 1 cent from a wholesaler. We're looking at what the grocer is out because the bill was counterfeit; we're not taking in to account that he bought the toothpaste for much less because he had that sale coming to him. You can't say the profit that he expected to make because of the mark-up doesn't count. It counts because he would have had that profit had the counterfeit bill not existed.

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Posted · Report post

What insurance would pay is irrelevant. What the mark-up on the product is also irrelevant. Assuming the person passed on a counterfeit bill unknowingly, the grocer would have $4 in exchange for the toothpaste. It doesn't matter if it only costs him 1 cent from a wholesaler. We're looking at what the grocer is out because the bill was counterfeit; we're not taking in to account that he bought the toothpaste for much less because he had that sale coming to him. You can't say the profit that he expected to make because of the mark-up doesn't count. It counts because he would have had that profit had the counterfeit bill not existed.

I agree completely ...

10 dollars traded

6 to X

4 to Y

so right now X is up $4 and Z is down 10

10 --> Z puts Z at even and X down $6

Ok, lets look it this was. Mr. X has a counterfeit bill of 10 dollars, and got $6 in value (change) and $4 in merchandise (toothpaste).

So, he got $10 for nothing. Then there must be another person with a loss of $10. Otherwise, it will contradict the conservation of monetary.

And that loss was to Mr. Y, because Mr. Z already got his money back ... and no money left with the assistant.

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