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TMM Mafia XII: High School Club Mafia
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In Topic: Newbie Mafia
29 March 2013 - 11:00 PM
In Topic: Newbie Mafia
17 March 2013 - 01:13 PM
Principals: Auramyna & Brainiac100
Rules
1. Flamebirde
2. nana77
3.
4.
5. TheCube
6.
7. Minato
8. marksmanjay
9. araver
10.Yodell
11.
Backups
1. plasmid
Adding my name, it's been a while since I last played on BD.
Rules
1. Flamebirde
2. nana77
3.
4.
5. TheCube
6.
7. Minato
8. marksmanjay
9. araver
10.Yodell
11.
Backups
1. plasmid
Adding my name, it's been a while since I last played on BD.
In Topic: Y-San's centrifuge
02 February 2013 - 02:13 PM
One final take on the "special" cases missed in the first solve and TSLF's correct scenarios.
And for the more general case:
Spoiler for5 is balanced on (12,3,4,8,9) too.add 2 opposing, 7 is balanced on (12,3,4,8,9,1,7) or (12,3,4,8,9,11,5), I get what you mean,thanks
TSLF, I'm glad you responded about the 5 and 7. It made me realize that I didn't fully understand my naive belief that "complementation" should preserve balance. As your example points out, the solution for 7 is NOT the complement of a solution for 5. So I wonder whether, for a larger centrifuge, of size N, the presence of a solution for M samples guarantees the existence of a solution for N-M samples.
Spoiler for but how to prove that it decomposes into periodic atomic patterns?TBD
In the example at hand, the 7 pattern decomposes into (12,4,8), (1,7), and (3,9). But that bears no obvious relationship to the complement of 5 patterns like (12,4,8),(1,7) or (12,4,8),(3,9)
Spoiler for so...
images are clearer.Reusing past established "facts":
*5 is balanced on (12,3,4,8,9)
*7 is balanced on (12,3,4,8,9,1,7) or (12,3,4,8,9,11,5),
All the above balanced scenarios can be decomposed into atomic groups (5=2+3),(7=2+2+3). And all have a complement scenario which is also balanced and can be split into atomic groups.
TSLF's solutions and complements below:
Centrifuge12.png 19.51K
15 downloads
- Fact: All p-balanced scenarios have a complement of (n-p)-balanced scenarios
- Corollary: All 5=balanced scenarios ARE complements of 7-balanced scenarios (and viceversa).
- Fact: All p-balanced scenarios where p is not prime and gcd(p,n)=1 can (must) be decomposed into balanced non-overlapping groups.
- Fact: All p-balanced scenarios where p is prime are composed of equally distant samples, are atomic, and gcd(p,n)=p.
- Corollary: All p-balanced scenarios where p is not prime and gcd(p,n)=1 can (must) be decomposed into balanced non-overlapping atomic groups.
*5 is balanced on (12,3,4,8,9)
*7 is balanced on (12,3,4,8,9,1,7) or (12,3,4,8,9,11,5),
All the above balanced scenarios can be decomposed into atomic groups (5=2+3),(7=2+2+3). And all have a complement scenario which is also balanced and can be split into atomic groups.
TSLF's solutions and complements below:
Centrifuge12.png 19.51K
15 downloadsAnd for the more general case:
Spoiler for Not sure,but
I dare conjecture based on the above that for any n which is a multiple of 6 (or equivalently have 2 and 3 as divisors), all cases except for 1 and n-1 samples can be decomposed into atomic non-overlapping groups of 2 or 3 samples. This seems intuitive because any number between 2 and n-2 can be written as a sum of 2s and/or 3s. So F(n)=n-2 for gcd(6,n)=6.
For a more general n, it is still tricky and I can't pinpoint to a way of ensuring non-overlapping. F(N)<=n-2 for sure.
For a more general n, it is still tricky and I can't pinpoint to a way of ensuring non-overlapping. F(N)<=n-2 for sure.
In Topic: Y-San's centrifuge
31 January 2013 - 05:50 PM
Araver, I guess that means we don't have it right. So I've got a question for you
Spoiler for can we decompose...a set of samples into two sets of different sizes, each of which is balanced? I don't think that's what you were saying, and I don't feel confident about the physics. But If we superimposed and rotated a 2-sample (12,6) with a 3-sample(1,5,9) to create (12 1 5 6 9), we would naturally get 5 and (via complementation) 7.
Spoiler for
Writing on the phone, I didn't recheck the sentences I wrote.
Yes, my first impression on composition/decomposition was using (3D) layers of a cake on top of each other:
If all layers/groups of samples are balanced AND one could shift them and project them without overlapping, maybe one would get another balanced set.
That is true for all SAME-groups regardless of overlapping (because of symmetry), but sometime during writing I became convinced that one cannot get both balance and avoid overlapping if groups are different.
Logic miss:
*Composition of balanced SAME groups preserves balance (all n-phi(n) above have easy to construct balanced atomic or SAME groups)
*Composition of balanced DIFFERENT groups doesn't ALWAYS preserve balance even if they don't overlapped(EDITED)
The missing link is the fact that if groups are different, there MAY be a shift such that composition is balanced. EDIT: Or not
For 12, there is such a shift for both 5 and 7 according to TSLF.
For 1 and 11 there is not (in general 1 and n-1 are never balanced). EDIT for n>=2
In general if p samples can be balanced the negative image of n-p samples are also balanced. EDIT: Less sure after I wrote this. Anyway, that only needs to be true for gcd(n,p)=1, the missing case above. In which case gcd(n,n-p)=1.
Writing on the phone, I didn't recheck the sentences I wrote.
Yes, my first impression on composition/decomposition was using (3D) layers of a cake on top of each other:
If all layers/groups of samples are balanced AND one could shift them and project them without overlapping, maybe one would get another balanced set.
That is true for all SAME-groups regardless of overlapping (because of symmetry), but sometime during writing I became convinced that one cannot get both balance and avoid overlapping if groups are different.
Logic miss:
*Composition of balanced SAME groups preserves balance (all n-phi(n) above have easy to construct balanced atomic or SAME groups)
*Composition of balanced DIFFERENT groups doesn't ALWAYS preserve balance even if they don't overlapped(EDITED)
The missing link is the fact that if groups are different, there MAY be a shift such that composition is balanced. EDIT: Or not
For 12, there is such a shift for both 5 and 7 according to TSLF.
For 1 and 11 there is not (in general 1 and n-1 are never balanced). EDIT for n>=2
In general if p samples can be balanced the negative image of n-p samples are also balanced. EDIT: Less sure after I wrote this. Anyway, that only needs to be true for gcd(n,p)=1, the missing case above. In which case gcd(n,n-p)=1.
The general question still remains ....
Spoiler for
And I don't think it's easy to construct these special cases using decomposition ...
And I don't think it's easy to construct these special cases using decomposition ...
In Topic: Y-San's centrifuge
30 January 2013 - 10:32 PM
Spoiler for thought
n-phi(n) for n geq 2 if having it spin empty is not considered a valid way. Plus 1 if no samples is considered a case of succesful processing rather than a waste of energy.
For n=12 that is 12-4=8. Unfortunately that is just fitting the data with a formula, not really an answer.
For 12 exactly, only 1, 5,7 and 11 samples can't be balanced.
Assume that q samples are balanced then the sample distribution could be decomposed into groups, each with at least 2 samples such that each group could be processed balancefully on its own. Decomposition may not be unique.
An atomic /not decomposable further) such group would have the distance among the samples constant. So the cardinal of the group would be a divisor of n to ensure the equal distance.
Being an atomic group kinda makes that cardinal prime othwrwise it can be decomposed into equal balanced groups
That being said The integration step is tricky or my algebra is very rusty. The solution - the number of q's between 1 and n exist such that there exists a balance position of q samples on n equally distanced placeholders. The number is clearly smaller or equal to the formula above. However, constructing a sample distribution for each q not relatively prime to n is not easy to describe.
Induction should work for n prime(trivial) and for q being a divisor of n (equally space them. Done)
plus the fact that if gcd(q,n)=p then p is balanced as a divisor of n. If q=p*r with r relatively prime with n by gcd definition then one needs to acknowledge that r groups each of p samples can be placed in r balanced layers each shifted with 1 position clockwise then the layer below and projected without overlapping since the length of consecutive samples is less than n/p the distance between the sanples in each group so shfting by 1 the distance can't be covered unless q=n in which case they still wouldn't manage to overlap/collide, just fit neatly.
All in all a great image is better than the thousand characters above.
For n=12 that is 12-4=8. Unfortunately that is just fitting the data with a formula, not really an answer.
For 12 exactly, only 1, 5,7 and 11 samples can't be balanced.
Assume that q samples are balanced then the sample distribution could be decomposed into groups, each with at least 2 samples such that each group could be processed balancefully on its own. Decomposition may not be unique.
An atomic /not decomposable further) such group would have the distance among the samples constant. So the cardinal of the group would be a divisor of n to ensure the equal distance.
Being an atomic group kinda makes that cardinal prime othwrwise it can be decomposed into equal balanced groups
That being said The integration step is tricky or my algebra is very rusty. The solution - the number of q's between 1 and n exist such that there exists a balance position of q samples on n equally distanced placeholders. The number is clearly smaller or equal to the formula above. However, constructing a sample distribution for each q not relatively prime to n is not easy to describe.
Induction should work for n prime(trivial) and for q being a divisor of n (equally space them. Done)
plus the fact that if gcd(q,n)=p then p is balanced as a divisor of n. If q=p*r with r relatively prime with n by gcd definition then one needs to acknowledge that r groups each of p samples can be placed in r balanced layers each shifted with 1 position clockwise then the layer below and projected without overlapping since the length of consecutive samples is less than n/p the distance between the sanples in each group so shfting by 1 the distance can't be covered unless q=n in which case they still wouldn't manage to overlap/collide, just fit neatly.
All in all a great image is better than the thousand characters above.
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