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religious debate


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#41 Scraff

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 01:50 AM

Last post.

No, but you do have to talk with every leprechaun believer in order to truthfully claim that there exists no compelling reason to believe in them.

I KNOW OF NO COMPELLING EVIDENCE THAT SUGGESTS LEPRECHAUNS EXIST THEREFORE I AM WITHOUT BELIEF IN THEIR EXISTENCE!

So what? The Bible does not command Christians to kill for those reasons, or for anyone outside the particular community to whom it was given.

Uh, yeah, it does.

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." Leviticus 20:13

"Moses assembled the whole Israelite community and said to them, "These are the things the LORD has commanded you to do: For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death. Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day." Exodus 35:1-3


Not false? This is getting a bit ridiculous. I am surprised you are unable to understand what I'm saying. Let me give you an example of a false "reason":

I am a theist because I have brown hair.

If your reasons for believing in any gods rests on your having brown hair for one reason or another, then having brown hair is not a false reason for your theism. It is the 'true' reason you're a theist.


Whatever Martini's (and your) reason for being atheistic, it is not because you require extraordinary evidence for extraordinary claims

Yes, it is. I am an atheist because I require extraordinary evidence for extraordinary claims. It is THE reason I and many others have no belief in gods. Nothing you say will take that away from us.

No, it doesn't, you are correct. Rather, my saying that that is not your reason is simply a recognition of insufficient cause.

Requiring evidence for belief in imaginary beings is not an insufficient cause.


On the other hand, it is false to say, "I am atheist because I have brown hair" or "I am atheist because I require extraordinary proof for extraordinary claims."

Wrong. If either of those things cause someone to not have belief in any gods then there is nothing false about it.


You told me what is and is not offensive to me. You were incorrect.

No, I didn't. I said that nothing anyone said in this thread was analogous to peeing on your mother's grave.

I find this interesting, given your previous criticism of me for being "rude" to Martini.



Is that before or after I get a frickin' clue? ;)

That's your response to someone saying "Peace"? I really do hope your time on this board is short.

I won't be responding in this thread again.
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#42 unreality

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 02:08 AM

spoxjox, about the brainwashing, I do not mean actual brainwashing, but something similar, as I said in that chunk you quoted ;) I dont mean hypnotizing or anything like that. Just repetitive instructing that one thing is true. That has never happened to me, so that is how I know that I am not brainwashed- though maybe I am totally brainwashed and I dont even remember that I was brainwashed, but that's unlikely and not the kind of brainwashing I'm talking about lol

as for that the last quote in Part One (gah this quote thing is confusing), do you remember when i said these are MY reasons for being an atheist... yes I have not received that proof. I am only speaking for myself.

On another note I'd like to add, spoxjox, that you have showed much closedmindedness while talking to Scraff.
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#43 unreality

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 02:16 AM

We atheists 'should' grill theists about why they think that god does exist, since THAT is the contrary arguement that goes against ALL evidence, yet we don't (spoxjox snipped this part out of the quote, I'm readding it).


Please name a piece of evidence -- just one will suffice -- that God does not exist.


Thats what I'm talking about in the quote in the quote. Right there. You just proved my point. You ask us for proof that god does NOT exist. That proof is not needed- it is all around us. We should be asking you.

Like Scraff, I am done here. You pulled apart my post and did your best, but you aren't converting anyone... the fact is that you believe claims from something known to contain LOTS of false information, and its been told to you over and over that that is the truth. I do not accept that truth. So I ask you: give me proof that god DOES exist. But it is a rhetorical question, because there is no such proof. That's what agnosticism is about (though I'm not agnostic personally)

Maybe I'll check back here once in a while, but probably not, because you pointed out silly flaws in my arguement that dont relate (such as the definition of brainwashing) and you completely ignored the message I was giving you in my post. Like Scraff, and like the enlightened writersblock said (that such a debate cannot be won), I'm outta here :)
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#44 Guest_unreality as a guest_*

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 02:36 AM

I agree with ^. If God creates everything, then it is not your fault that you don't go to heaven; it is God's fault for creating you that way.

Also, religion answers everything. It is for those people who just want to accept everything as it is. I'm guessing that was why it was prominent in Medieval times... people didn't have answers, so they made an entity that could answer everything. Why is the sky blue? God made it that way. Why has all my family died? God made it that way. What is the meaning of life? Only God knows. Why were hundreds of people killed in a tsunami? God made it happen. Why am I crippled for life? God made it so. Why does my brother have terminal cancer? God made it so.

Suddenly everything is done by God's hand. If you are depressed, God must be punishing you. If it's the best time of your life, God is making it that way. If your dream comes true, God must have helped you. You do nothing without God's help. Everything revolves around this greater power, and people are asked to have faith in this greater power; to believe in something that never reveals itself.
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#45 spoxjox

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 02:36 AM

I KNOW OF NO COMPELLING EVIDENCE THAT SUGGESTS LEPRECHAUNS EXIST THEREFORE I AM WITHOUT BELIEF IN THEIR EXISTENCE!

Finally, a reasonable statement with which I can agree. Please note how different this is from, "I REQUIRE EXTRAORDINARY PROOF FOR EXTRAORDINARY CLAIMS THEREFORE I AM WITHOUT BELIEF IN LEPRECHAUNS!"

Uh, yeah, it does.

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." Leviticus 20:13

"Moses assembled the whole Israelite community and said to them, "These are the things the LORD has commanded you to do: For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death. Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day." Exodus 35:1-3

No, it does not. Moses did not live in the Christian era.

Yes, it is. I am an atheist because I require extraordinary evidence for extraordinary claims. It is THE reason I and many others have no belief in gods. Nothing you say will take that away from us.

Try this:

Suppose, for the sake of argument, that God himself appeared before you and made known to you, beyond any possible doubt in your mind, that he did exist.

Would you then know that God exists?

Yes, of course.

Would you still require extraordinary proof for extraordinary claims?

Yes, I assume you would.

Since you still require extraordinary proof for extraordinary claims -- which you claim as your reason for being atheist -- would you therefore still be atheist?

No.

Therefore, the fact that you require extraordinary proof for extraordinary claims cannot be the reason you are atheist. In logical terms, it is a non sequitur.

For a second example, suppose for a moment that you no longer required extraordinary evidence for extraordinary claims in every case. Perhaps in some cases, ordinary, less compelling evidence would suffice. Would you then suddenly become a theist?

Probably not.

But why not? Your reason for being atheist would be gone.

In fact, it would not be gone. You are atheist because you have not perceived sufficient evidence of God, not because you require extraordinary proof for extraordinary claims.

Wrong. If either of those things cause someone to not have belief in any gods then there is nothing false about it.

But as I have demonstrated, your insistence on proof is not causal to your atheism. Rather, it is your perception of the lack of evidence that is causul to your atheism.

No, I didn't. I said that nothing anyone said in this thread was analogous to peeing on your mother's grave.

And I said they did.

That's your response to someone saying "Peace"? I really do hope your time on this board is short.

You know, unlike my first responses on this thread, I have taken special pains in every response I have made to you to avoid any possible ad hominem. You have made (apparently) little attempt to do likewise. I have at all times tried to argue the point, while you have been free with your criticisms of both myself and theists in general. I found your use of the term "Peace" to be highly ironic, given the tenor of your postings, and I commented on it in a humorous way. I thought my use of a "smiley" would make that groaningly obvious, which is why I used it, even though in general I detest using smileys.
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#46 Guest_unreality as a guest_*

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 02:37 AM

by the way that's something I found somewhere, dont take it out of context, I didnt say that- but I agree with it
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#47 spoxjox

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 02:37 AM

On another note I'd like to add, spoxjox, that you have showed much closedmindedness while talking to Scraff.

I don't know what you mean. You will need to provide quotes of what you think is "closeminded" about my postings. I have dealt in strictly logical terms with Scraff.
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Posted 05 January 2008 - 02:39 AM

"In fact, it would not be gone. You are atheist because you have not perceived sufficient evidence of God, not because you require extraordinary proof for extraordinary claims." -spoxjox

I agree. That is the reason.

~unreality
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#49 spoxjox

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 02:48 AM


We atheists 'should' grill theists about why they think that god does exist, since THAT is the contrary arguement that goes against ALL evidence, yet we don't


Please name a piece of evidence -- just one will suffice -- that God does not exist.


Thats what I'm talking about in the quote in the quote. Right there. You just proved my point. You ask us for proof that god does NOT exist. That proof is not needed- it is all around us. We should be asking you.

Please note your claims, which I have marked in bold. I am merely asking you to substantiate these claims that you have put forth. If you are going to use a claim, you need to establish it. So far, you have merely asserted that belief in a god "goes against ALL evidence". Assertions do not make truth. So I'm inviting you to back up your assertion. If you cannot, then your assertion is invalid.

Like Scraff, I am done here. You pulled apart my post and did your best, but you aren't converting anyone...

You mistake my purpose. I am not trying to "convert" anyone. I am arguing the proposition. I thought that was the point of the thread.

So I ask you: give me proof that god DOES exist. But it is a rhetorical question, because there is no such proof.

So you ask a question that you refuse to consider an answer for, declaring the question "rhetorical". Then you use that to affirm your own (wrong) opinion about lack of proof, and declare yourself atheist.

Do you see a problem with this?

Maybe I'll check back here once in a while, but probably not, because you pointed out silly flaws in my arguement that dont relate (such as the definition of brainwashing) and you completely ignored the message I was giving you in my post.

Your message appeared to be nothing more than, "I don't believe in God." I was attempting to respond to the reasons you provided. Perhaps I just didn't understand your message. Can you restate it succinctly?
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#50 spoxjox

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 02:57 AM

I agree with ^.

You mean that you agree with yourself? I should hope so. :)

If God creates everything, then it is not your fault that you don't go to heaven; it is God's fault for creating you that way.

True enough. But the question under discussion is not whether God created everything. It is whether God exists, and why theists might so believe.

Also, religion answers everything. It is for those people who just want to accept everything as it is.

Can you back up this assertion? I personally know nonreligious people who are striving "to accept everything as it is", which contradicts your claim.

I'm guessing that was why it was prominent in Medieval times... people didn't have answers, so they made an entity that could answer everything.

I do not believe that religion was either more or less prevalent in medieval times than in earlier times in history. Can you provide evidence to buttress your assertion?

Suddenly everything is done by God's hand. If you are depressed, God must be punishing you.

Funny, but as far as I know, no theists I know believe as you claim. And I know a great number of theists.

Everything revolves around this greater power, and people are asked to have faith in this greater power; to believe in something that never reveals itself.

Yet just on this thread alone, at least two people have testified that God has indeed revealed himself to them. Your statement fails to take this testimony into consideration.
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