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time travel


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#1 stwalk

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Posted 24 December 2007 - 04:24 PM

Assumed constants:
1. time travel is possible
2. anyone can time travel
3. you can not travle forward in time (non-established timeline)

Eventually there will come a moment in time, that is so traveled to, that there will not be room enough to move. The longer time elapses, and the more people that travel to that specific moment in time, will cause you to eventually run into another person during time travel. What would happen then? Eventually, all space in that specific moment in time will be filled with matter i.e. people. disscuss?

secondly... if we (people) are energy, and we time travel, back in time (time being relative from present point) would then being back in time really be intoducing new energy into the time line? And would we then effectivly be creating energy? Knowing that you can neither create or destroy energy, would that then preclude us from time travel?
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#2 Ploper

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Posted 24 December 2007 - 05:59 PM

The energy's not really being created or destroyed though... I think.
Isn't it just being moved, into a whole new time zone.
But eventually, the energy balances itself out.
If I go back in time, say, 10 minutes
then there will be more energy in the world
but then, in 10 minutes, when the other me goes back in time, then the energy on earth will go back to normal...
I dunno, just a thought.

welcome to the boards, by the way.
hope you have fun
and get used to my low self-esteem and the other members picking at every detail until all that's left is a cold, hard, solid lump of truth...
:D
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#3 Writersblock

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Posted 24 December 2007 - 06:49 PM

This presupposes that time is a constant timeline with a beginning point, rather than continuum - I am not sure that is true.

Assuming the "beginning" as true, people are not energy, but I get what you are saying. The conservation of mass and energy might bear on the discussion. I think you have a problem in your thinking though. As I understand it, the conservation of mass and energy just means that you cannot create one without the other. It doesn't mean that you must have a constant "amount" in the universe. Since you are already created, I don't see a problem in context of time travel. If you assume time as a 4th "dimension" of sort, then it would be the same as if you walk across a room into another room. You have introduced new mass into that room, but so what? You see my point?

So if we assume TT is possible, not precluded by the Laws of Thermodynamics, and that space time does indeed have a beginning terminal, the introduction of YOU into new space/time does nothing except crowd the particular space/time you are in. If somebody else tries to enter that space/time, you'll bump into each other and chances are good you both will move to a slightly different space-time. (Imagine moving me slightly so you can fit into a very crowded elevator.) I am not sure you'd ever fill an infinite universe.

But, if we assume that somehow the TT allows people to occupy the exact same space/time - wow.

First, YUK. You'd have a huge mass of people parts all stuck together.

Second, you create a paradox if you assume the "beginning terminal" to our space/time. You can never travel to a space/time already occupied by you (because you are already there). So if you assume this as true, then everyone who ever existed already was at the big SMUSH at the beginning terminal (having traveled there and gotten "SMUSHED" and therefore cannot travel there again - but if they can't travel there, then how did they get there? Paradox.

Third, if you ignore the paradox and assume that

all space in that specific moment in time will be filled with matter i.e. people

, I don't think it matters (no pun intended). You'd still just end up with all these people parts in a big jumble, unless you reached some kind of critical mass and started a new sun. That would be kinda cool I guess.

Fourth, I see a problem to the whole idea when you consider parallel timelines. Say, for example we are on Timeline A. IF I move backward in time to a period where I didn't exist before, then we now have to consider this Timeline B, as it differs from Timeline A. Therefore with every backward jump, you create a new reality - none of which affect Timeline A. So the sum effect on Timeline A is zero. None of it matters.
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#4 Ploper

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Posted 24 December 2007 - 07:08 PM

I like writersblock's theory because.. cuz it makes sense.
But I just wanna adress something

people are not energy,



aren't we?
I mean, if someone were to kill us, and eat our bodies, they would take in our chemical energy
thus, they could convert it to mechanical energy
so they got energy from us, so we must contain energy?
So the energy does change
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#5 unreality

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Posted 25 December 2007 - 06:02 PM

Time travel induces millions; no billions; of paradoxes- not just the "oh f*ck I went back in time and shot me when I was a baby" thing... anything to prevent you from going back in time, etc. It's not just that.

Paradoxes just like that one (go back and kill your parents, etc) happen an uncountable billion of times at an atomic level. By moving you and your atoms and related bacteria and cells and living matter (probably not any nonliving things connected to you like clothes, tattoos, piercings, etc, that would be my guess) and all that back in time there would be millions, billions, trillions, maybe infinite, I have no idea, of paradoxes happening.

And because of the butterfly effect and random things that happen at atomic levels and such- all of this assuming randomness in natures and thoughts, and free will, you going back will change the world a LOT. Voila, major paradox.

However, there is one possible way that time travel can exist.

1) going forward in time creates no paradoxes and is very simple

2) going backward in time is also possible, but different. When you go back in time, you would create a new universe sprouting from the point in time that you went back to..

In this new universe, which has the same history as the mother universe up the point of the split, is now on a different path. You could kill yourself as a baby, your parents, your grandfathers, the person that invents the time travel system and 5 million other people, take over Canada and blow up Antartica and it wouldn't affect the universe that it split off from- in THAT universe, you would still go back in time to make this one.
There is NO way to get back to the universe you originally came from. The only way to get into a new universe is to go back in time and create a new one.

Thus at the beginning of time, there would be one (or possibly more) "strands" of universes and then it start to become a big tree, more and more universes as people go back in time.

Clarification edit: the universe is created at the point that you go back to. For example, it's 2007 (soon to be 08 woot!) and I go back to year 500, the universe I am on right now splits off at year 500. The histories up to that point are equal, then they start becoming different as my time travel and random events and free will and such changes the universe- over 1500 years the year 2007 in this universe would be waay different than our current 2007.

But if you went back 5 minutes, there wouldn't much time for your change to make much of a difference in the new universe you created, it would probably be mostly the same 5 minutes later.

No paradoxes- assuming the time travel is actually possible.
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#6 unreality

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Posted 25 December 2007 - 06:07 PM

Also, if you went back in time 1000 years and then quickly went forward to 2000, the change would be minimal- or more, depending on how much YOU change it compared to how many random stuff and free will and the complexity of brains and behavior and atomic-level stuff like weather is. It would probably still be some pretty big change, even if you were there for just a moment
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#7 roolstar

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Posted 27 December 2007 - 03:42 PM

Think about this:

If both the past and future exist, how can we define the present? Where is it exactly?


1) going forward in time creates no paradoxes and is very simple



Pretty bold statement!!

In fact going into the future holds even more paradoxes than going into the past!

Consider this: I go 3 hours into the future and see myself having a car accident. So I come back and stay at home for the next 3 hours. I successfully avoided the car accident. But how can I remember it if it didn’t happen? And if I don’t remember it, why did I stay at home then?

So 3 possibilities:
1-I go into the future and when I come back to the present, I lose my memory (future memory). Stupid theory.
2-The future can be simply travelled to by way of simulation based on probabilities. And the bigger the number of parameters entered, the more precise it is. Much like the weather forecast. More plausible.
3-The present is the last moment of the past nothing more! And the future does not exist (yet)! We simply create presents to build the best possible future for us!

Either way, traveling into the future cannot take place at a faster speed than the speed we are already going at: We are all traveling into the future at the same speed! Very hard to determine that speed though, believe me I tried!

Traveling in the past however is a different situation depending on these 2 possibilities:
1-The past still exists much like a trail in the water we leave behind. I don’t agree!
2-The past is just what we remember of it. No physical presence. The only way to “See” the past is by going faster than light emitted by the universe and turning back to watch it go past us again. It will be just like watching a video. No way to change any of the events, and certainly no way to create a new universe as easy at it sounds!
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#8 unreality

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Posted 27 December 2007 - 03:56 PM

Think about this:

If both the past and future exist, how can we define the present? Where is it exactly?



1) going forward in time creates no paradoxes and is very simple



Pretty bold statement!!

In fact going into the future holds even more paradoxes than going into the past!

Consider this: I go 3 hours into the future and see myself having a car accident. So I come back and stay at home for the next 3 hours. I successfully avoided the car accident. But how can I remember it if it didn’t happen? And if I don’t remember it, why did I stay at home then?




Obviously you don't understand what going into the future entails. I am right when I say there are no paradoxes because:

there are not TWO of you when you go into the future.

Trust me, I have given all of this much thought.

Let's say you go three hours in the future. You disappear and reappear 3 hours later- for you it seemed like the blink of an eye, but for everyone else, 3 hours passed without you present. THERE ARE NOT TWO OF YOU WHEN YOU GO INTO THE FUTURE.

Let's say you are ten years old and you go fifty years into the future- you are seeing a future that had no contribution from you, since you have not aged past 10. You disappeared 50 years ago, and you reappear now, as a 10-year old, the only 'you' in the world.

But if you go back and read my post on how travelling back in time can work, you will see how the present-past-future issue isn't relevant. This works even with free will, with a future that isn't defined yet. The present is where you are currently, and there is no future. Even when you go back in time, in my theory you create a new universe, and that's as far as the universe has gotten to, there is an uncertain future ahead of you in this new universe. Free will can exist.

Of course I am an atheist and I believe in free will, but if you believe that everything is set until the end of time (a boring and confusing way to live, IMO) then it's all been figured out by god or buddha or whatever, and everything has already been planned out, so no paradoxes
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#9 Ploper

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 12:26 AM

jeez I never thought of that.
When you go into the future, there's not really an alternate you that didn't go to the future, and stayed in the ever moving present.
Man...
Back to the Future II lied to me.
Marty Sr. would never be walkin around in his house when what's-her-face is in the closet.
Cuz there would be 30 years where Marty kinda... disappeares.
WHOAH
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#10 PDR

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 12:48 AM


1) going forward in time creates no paradoxes and is very simple


Pretty bold statement!!

In fact going into the future holds even more paradoxes than going into the past!

Consider this: I go 3 hours into the future and see myself having a car accident. So I come back and stay at home for the next 3 hours. I successfully avoided the car accident. But how can I remember it if it didn’t happen? And if I don’t remember it, why did I stay at home then?

The paradox in your example is created by the time travel going backwards. There was no paradox simply from travelling into the future. You saw the accident, it freaked you out - but no paradox yet. It wasn't till you travelled back from the future that you initiated the paradox.

All this talk of time travel reminds me of a dream I once had... I dreamt that I had come back from the future and Future Me showed Current Me how to timetravel. Unfortunatley when Current Me woke up, I forgot how it was done so now I can't go back and show myself how to time travel.
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