79 replies to this topic

[psycho]

Never mind

Edited by psycho, 21 April 2009 - 06:47 PM.

[Prof. Templeton]

Spoiler for possible solution?

Ask one of the gods:
-are you a mortal? and subsequently ask the same god:
-did you just answer with a negative?

If H: will answer N, Y
If S: will answer Y, Y
If R: will answer Y, N

Now you know what "yes" and "no" are, and you know what one of the gods is.
Next, if the confirmed god is H, point to another of the gods and ask:
-Is he a S? If Y, that god is a S, and the remaining one is a R. If N, that god is a R, and the remaining one is a S.
OR, if the confirmed god is a S, ask someone else:
-are you R? If N, that god is H, and the other one is R. If Y, that god is R, and the other one is H.
OR, if the confirmed god is R, ask someone else:
-are you R? If Y, that god is S, and the other god is H. If N, that god is H, and the other god is S.

Sorry for making it so long! It is probably overcomplicated.

You won't know what "Yes" and "No" are after 2 questions since you could have gotten a Y then a N or a N then a Y

Spoiler for Final Answer

Pick one God. Ask if they are an Honestant.
Swindlecant: Yes
Honestant: Yes
Random Cant: No

Ask if they just said Yes
Swindlecant: No
Honestcant: Yes
Randomcant: Yes

Ask if they are a Swindlecant:
Swindlecant: No
Honestcant: No
Randomcant: No

A Swindlecant would answer Yes No No
A Honestcant would answer Yes Yes No
A Randomcant would answer No Yes No

As we can't understand the answers (different language) look for a sound pattern:

S = a b b or 1 followed by 2
H = a a b or 2 followed by 1
R = b a b or alternating pattern

So you can determine 1 of the Gods, but what about the other 2?

[CaptainEd]

I'm having a fundamental problem with the premise of R: Let's just look at one question--the gods are A, B, and C. Never mind that I don't know what the answers mean, I just want to know how they would answer in their native tongue.

Ask A if B is H.
If A is H, answer is No (because B is not H)
If A is S
If B is H, answer is No, because B is H
If B is R, answer is Yes, because B is not H
If A is R,
We don’t know what H would say, if B is H, because A couldn’t be H. Since I can't tell what A would say if B were H, I can't tell whether one and only one god would say Yes.

So, I don’t know what R would say.

Please help explicate the premise!

[psycho]

You won't know what "Yes" and "No" are after 2 questions since you could have gotten a Y then a N or a N then a Y


So you can determine 1 of the Gods, but what about the other 2?

Yep. I realized that just after I posted it and I wasn't quick enough with my retraction.

I'll have to think about this one.

[zzembower]

I like your thinking psycho

Spoiler for but

the rules say that if you were to ask the randomcant your first questions he would say no since BOTH of the other gods would say yes and not just one.

Edit: Sorry I had been typing for a while

Having said that

Spoiler for I think

we need a question that all three answer negative which would be "Are you a lier?"
Whatever they answer is a no and you can ask "Did you just answer yes?" in which case the randomcant and lier would say yes but the truthteller would say no.
If no: Then you know the truthteller and can ask the same god "Is he (pointing at one of the others) a swindlecant?" and he will tell you the truth and you know all 3.
If yes: Ask the same god "Is he (pointing at one of the others) a swindlecant?" only the lier would say yes and the randomcant would say no and this is where i am stuck.

Edited by zzembower, 21 April 2009 - 06:59 PM.

[plasmid]

Spoiler for

It almost seems like you can prove that this is an impossible problem. If you number the gods #1, #2, and #3, there are six different possible arrangements
1H, 2S, 3R
1H, 2R, 3S
1S, 2H, 3R
1S, 2R, 3H
1R, 2H, 3S
1R, 3S, 2H

The gods will reply with a word whose meaning you don't know. Without loss of generality, we can call the first word you hear in response to a question "A". If you hear a different response on any subsequent question, we can call that response "B". There would be four different possible patterns of responses
AAA
AAB
ABA
ABB
which wouldn't be enough to ensure that you could distinguish between six possible arangements of the gods.

Which leads me to ask, is it allowed to ask a god a question like "If I were to ask you this question, would your answer be the equivalent of "no"?" such that the Honestant would have to be silent or take some other third course of action?

[Dio da Goat]

Spoiler for possible solution?

Ask one of the gods:
-are you a mortal? and subsequently ask the same god:
-did you just answer with a negative?

If H: will answer N, Y
If S: will answer Y, Y
If R: will answer Y, N

Now you know what "yes" and "no" are, and you know what one of the gods is.
Next, if the confirmed god is H, point to another of the gods and ask:
-Is he a S? If Y, that god is a S, and the remaining one is a R. If N, that god is a R, and the remaining one is a S.
OR, if the confirmed god is a S, ask someone else:
-are you R? If N, that god is H, and the other one is R. If Y, that god is R, and the other one is H.
OR, if the confirmed god is R, ask someone else:
-are you R? If Y, that god is S, and the other god is H. If N, that god is H, and the other god is S.

Sorry for making it so long! It is probably overcomplicated.

Your first two questions would go the way you describe, but it in no way gives you any information unless you were lucky enough to ask the Swindelcant god.

You'd have no way to differentiate between H and R, nor would you know which question means yes and which means no.

[CaptainEd]

I have another question about the premise.
"Because of possible loop conflicts, you may not ask any question about how the God of the Randomcants would answer."

Does this mean:
(a) you may not ask anybody "How would R answer...? or
(b) you may not ask anybody "How would B answer", given that B might be R.

[Judix]

Your first two questions would go the way you describe, but it in no way gives you any information unless you were lucky enough to ask the Swindelcant god.

You'd have no way to differentiate between H and R, nor would you know which question means yes and which means no.

Yeah, it figures. I thought I was getting someplace, too. Must ponder more.

Spoiler for anyways

Makes me wonder if figuring out what "yes" and "no" are is not needed.

[Prof. Templeton]

I'm having a fundamental problem with the premise of R: Let's just look at one question--the gods are A, B, and C. Never mind that I don't know what the answers mean, I just want to know how they would answer in their native tongue.

Ask A if B is H.
If A is H, answer is No (because B is not H)
If A is S
If B is H, answer is No, because B is H
If B is R, answer is Yes, because B is not H
If A is R,
We don’t know what H would say, if B is H, because A couldn’t be H. Since I can't tell what A would say if B were H, I can't tell whether one and only one god would say Yes.

So, I don’t know what R would say.

Please help explicate the premise!

Well, R's answers depend on what H and S would respond with. So if we are asking if God "B" is an Honestant and "B" was, in fact the Honestant:

H would reply "Yes"
S would reply "No"
R would reply "Yes" since only one of the reponses from the other two Gods was a "Yes".

If God "B" is not an Honestant then:

H would reply "No"
S would reply "Yes"
R would reply "Yes" since only one of the reponses from the other two Gods was a "Yes".

R's answers are only dependent on what H and S would answer if given the same question. So in your example above R would give you 2 seperate answer that depended on if "B" was the Honestant or if he wasn't. For this question R's replies happen to be the same in both cases. If you walked up to God "A" and asked "Is God B is an Honestant", if "A" was the Randomcant you would get the same answer wheather "B" was or wasn't. Have I made it more confusing?

H...S...R
Y...Y...N
Y...N...Y
N...Y...Y
N...N...N