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In the Alps


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#21 skoobit

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 11:29 PM

Perhaps the quality of the riddle could be improved by Emanuel instead saying "Either both Hans and Phillip are lying or both Hans and Phillip are not lying." If this statement is false, then one is lying, and one is not. For an illustration of what I just said, you can look at the truth table in this spreadsheet file (easier than posting in here, sorry): [url:23592]http://www.box.net/shared/static/s5mypr3nua.xls[/url]. You will notice the file extension is .xls--this is not a virus. [Also note: I'll keep the file available for another few weeks, then I'll take it down. In the mean time, if anyone knows of a better way to show this in here, tell me]

This is originally how I interpreted the riddle. As far as I can tell, this resolves the issue of whether Emanuel hears what Hans says before he speaks (as some others said before, going by Emanuel's original statement, we could say he is always lying). I think the key thing is that Hans is making a statement about the truth of Emanuel's statement, and this narrows it down to two scenarios (scenarios 2 and 4), and in both cases, Phillip is lying.

I think my reasoning is right, but check.
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#22 skoobit

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 11:56 PM

.
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#23 imperial

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Posted 30 October 2007 - 12:42 AM

Let's assume you believe that Emanuel is the liar, and you assmue that both his statements are lies (A. the others both say the same thing, and B. he is unsure of whether or not they are truthful). Just because A is a lie, are we sure that they say the opposite? Why can't one say "Emanuel is a liar" and the other say "I have no knowledge of Emanuel's integrity." Can't both statements be true?
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#24 Poppinjay

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Posted 03 December 2007 - 02:58 AM

Wait.

Hans says that Emanuel lies.
Emanuel says that hans and philip are either both liars are both truth tellers but he doesn't know which. But he does know that Hans called him a liar. This means he does know whether Hans is telling the truth or not. Since he says he doesn't, he must be lying. This is consistent with what Hans said, and so Hans is a truth teller. We also know that Hans and Emanual can't be the same (becuase a liar said they were) and so Philip must also be a liar. If you take a lie to require only lying about one part of the conjunction then you don't know for sure about philip. Either way it is Emanual who is the liar.



In the Alps - Back to the Logic Problems
Three tourists have an argument regarding the way they should go. Hans says that Emanuel lies. Emanuel claims that Hans and Philip speak the same, only doesn't know whether truth or lie. So who is lying for sure?


Spoiler for Solution


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#25 Poppinjay

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Posted 03 December 2007 - 03:04 AM

Some of the problem rest on the abiguity on whether or not everything a liar says has to be a liar or whether every statement a liar says has to be a liar on the whole.


Fore example: Could a Lair say: Two plus two equals five and a triangle has three sides. By the rule of conjuntion if either part is a lie then the whole statement is.

But, one would interpret that a every statement a liar makes is a lie, and thus when emanuel says that he does not know if H&P are liars, but he knows they are the same then we must know that philip is different because both parts have to be a lie.

I am not sure if all these riddles are consistent in the way they they assume Liars behave.
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#26 aishi_khurana

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 07:01 PM

Three tourists have an argument regarding the way they should go. Hans says that Emanuel lies. Emanuel claims that Hans and Philip speak the same, only doesn't know whether truth or lie. So who is lying for sure?

THE WAY YOU VE PUT THE QUESTION SHOWS THAT THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE PERSON LYING.
SO IF EMANUEL IS SPEAKING TRUTH IT SHOWS THAT TWO OF THE OTHER PEOPLE ARE LYING...WHICH IS NOT TRUE(ONLY 1 CAN LIE )....SO SURELY EMANUEL IS LYING AND OTHER TWO ARE SPEAKING THE TRUTH....AM I RIGHT
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#27 KCPost

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Posted 26 December 2007 - 02:05 AM

Hans knows if Phillip speaks the same as him. Hans claims that Emanual is lying when Hans and Phillip speak the same...thus the only one we know for sure that is lying is Emanual.

If Emanual is not the liar then Hans and Phillip are both liars, of this we can be sure because Emanual said that Hans and Phillip both speak the same.

The question asked for which "one" we can be sure that is lying. If Emanual is telling the truth then we can be sure of two liars.
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#28 xposer

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 07:21 PM

ok.....the way you guys are analyzing it seems more complex than it should be. Emanual is the definite liar because he states that "Hans and Phillip speak the same," yet at the beginning of this problem it states that 3 tourists are arguing (since this isn't anyone's statement it must be true). Ergo, it would be false to say they speak the same since 3 people are arguing not 2v1
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#29 Sonic_Hedgehog

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 01:37 PM

This problem has no solution.
The rookie1ja's solution says Phillip is the only one who lied for sure. But Phillip never spoke so how could he lie.
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#30 carafate

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 04:24 PM

I think Philip is getting a bad rap. He seems innocent in all of this madness. Perhaps he should choose his traveling companions more carefully in the future. Maybe take me to the Alps. I've never been.
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