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35 replies to this topic

#21 UKJon

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 05:03 PM

The thing i want to comment most on is weather or not to let a judge/jury/ or committee decide your fate. Just like in this topic there are people who are for in and against it. It's going to be the same with the committee as well. I believe it should be someone you trust beyond all else, like a very close friend. Not family because they would want to keep you alive, but someone who could make the choice and live with it.



Thanks for pointing this out. I forgot to include the patient should also have a BIG say in these meetings.


Edit: This also stops anybody wanting to commit suicide an easy get out. There are some strange people in this world.

Edited by UKJon, 19 November 2008 - 05:05 PM.

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#22 bociniki

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 06:03 PM

This is probably not really the topic to go into the authenticity of the bible or of Jesus. If you want to talk about that, I would suggest starting another form, to which I would be more than happy to reply to. More to the topic at hand, my personal opinion is that euthanasia should not be allowed. Apart from all the things so far mentioned, in other countries where euthanasia is legal, it is often abused, people are killed who did not really want to die. Also, sometimes in a moment of pain the patient thinks he wants to die, but later, he is glad that the others around did not listen to him pleading for death. You shouldn't allow someone to make a big decision when they are suffering severely, because then momentary emotions play a large part in the decision.
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#23 unreality

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 01:51 AM

Blade has it down good :D Although bocinki raises a good point too - which is why, as Blade suggested, someone else should be involved in the decision
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#24 octopuppy

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 08:11 AM

I can assure you that it is the cancer that kills the patients.

Different cases of cancer obviously require different treatment, though I'm reliably informed that a cumulatively lethal dose of medication is the real cause of death in some cases. Naturally the nature and prognosis of the cancer, and the wishes of the patient and the patient's family, would be taken into consideration. And officially it doesn't happen at all (but that's what I was questioning).

Many cancer patients are happy for a further 2 months even if that means the constant monitoring by health professionals and an increasing amount of time spent at hospitals. I do not know how much pain they are enduring during those last few months but they feel they have something to live for.

I didn't mean to suggest that a patient's lifespan is affected significantly by the drugs, if you have 2 months to live nobody's going to give you a lethal dose of medication today. The painkillers only help to finish you off kindly at the point where the cancer is doing that anyway, so the exact cause of death is a technicality, and an indistinct one at that.



In general I feel that euthanasia is best avoided in cases where there is even the tiniest chance of recovery. But I do feel that it ought to be decided in clear terms, requiring:
a) consent of patient
b) consent of responsible medical professional (clearly identified and audited to prevent abuse)
c) consent of patient's family and closest loved ones

Where all three of the above are not available (such as the patient being unable to give consent, or having no family, or a family in disagreement) euthanasia may be the best course of action in some cases but extreme caution needs to be taken and the case should at least be examined at a higher level and in great detail.

This places the responsibility ultimately with the medical profession (and perhaps governing bodies) as a whole, where it is best dealt with. At the moment I feel that we fail to deal with it, and since it is a real issue this sometimes forces people to take their own measures in an ad hoc manner.
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#25 UKJon

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 10:25 AM

I didn't mean to suggest that a patient's lifespan is affected significantly by the drugs, if you have 2 months to live nobody's going to give you a lethal dose of medication today. The painkillers only help to finish you off kindly at the point where the cancer is doing that anyway, so the exact cause of death is a technicality, and an indistinct one at that.


My comment was not a rebuttal for your comment. Sorry for not making the distinction. I was trying to add that to the general discussion.



In general I feel that euthanasia is best avoided in cases where there is even the tiniest chance of recovery. But I do feel that it ought to be decided in clear terms, requiring:
a) consent of patient
b) consent of responsible medical professional (clearly identified and audited to prevent abuse)
c) consent of patient's family and closest loved ones

Where all three of the above are not available (such as the patient being unable to give consent, or having no family, or a family in disagreement) euthanasia may be the best course of action in some cases but extreme caution needs to be taken and the case should at least be examined at a higher level and in great detail.

This places the responsibility ultimately with the medical profession (and perhaps governing bodies) as a whole, where it is best dealt with. At the moment I feel that we fail to deal with it, and since it is a real issue this sometimes forces people to take their own measures in an ad hoc manner.



I agree fully. However, if there is a change in law then I think that the professionals involved should get emotional support and I fear that this may be overlooked.

I now eager to read Jane's essay!

Edited by UKJon, 20 November 2008 - 10:30 AM.

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#26 octopuppy

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 11:14 AM

I agree fully. However, if there is a change in law then I think that the professionals involved should get emotional support and I fear that this may be overlooked.

I suspect that in practice many medical professionals are willing and able to take that decision, since they are fully aware of the pros and cons and also quite accustomed to dealing with life and death in a responsible but detached manner. But also if there was a system in which euthanasia was practiced, the emotional impact would be lessened by the fact that the actions taken have the explicit legal and moral backing of the public at large, and without the need for secrecy, euthanasia could be carried out in whatever way makes it most palatable for all concerned.

(Reading that, it sounds like I'm all for euthanasia. Anyone else reading it please bear in mind it's only a thing I'd advocate in extreme circumstances, but extreme circumstances do happen.)
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#27 RainThinker

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 04:04 AM

Hmmm... :mellow:
2 words:

Dr. Kevorkian
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#28 Lost in space

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 11:46 AM

Hmmm... :mellow:
2 words:

Dr. Kevorkian

And that's why you need a second opion, bring it into the open and deal with it instead of letting one man/doc to rationalise it and inform the family. Otherwise you have farming for organs and early life termination request for cryogenic stasis (or what ever the proper name is)
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#29 Blade

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 04:11 PM

This is probably not really the topic to go into the authenticity of the bible or of Jesus. If you want to talk about that, I would suggest starting another form, to which I would be more than happy to reply to. More to the topic at hand, my personal opinion is that euthanasia should not be allowed. Apart from all the things so far mentioned, in other countries where euthanasia is legal, it is often abused, people are killed who did not really want to die. Also, sometimes in a moment of pain the patient thinks he wants to die, but later, he is glad that the others around did not listen to him pleading for death. You shouldn't allow someone to make a big decision when they are suffering severely, because then momentary emotions play a large part in the decision.


Hmmm.... ever think a person is TERMANILY ill??? Hell thats even why we are considering doing it in the first place! If the person is sick and is in terrible pain... uh i think the last option would be death! Unless of course he just dies before hand. But if it's cancer and there is nothing better to do besides wait and twidle your thumbs.... dont you think you can put that person out of their misery????


Blade has it down good :D Although bocinki raises a good point too - which is why, as Blade suggested, someone else should be involved in the decision


*bows to the audience* I would like to thank the acadamy for this award, oh and of course Unreality. B))
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#30 puzzlegirl

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 04:48 PM

Since when did I become the authority on Christianity for this forum? However, I am very pleased that many of you acknowledge my faith in Christ...that means I must be doing a decent job evangelizing!

Anyhow, about euthenasia. I can see several benefits in it, depending on the case; but I do not think it should be legalized. However, I do not see a DNR form as suicide. I worked in the medical profession for years - as the Administrator for an assisted living center - and I think that when people are old and in ill health that they should have to choice to allow GOD to take them in their time. Plus, the DNR form can be written any number of ways. Say a person codes, they can specifiy that life-saving measures be taken to resuscitate them, but that if they are brain dead then they do not want any measures taken. They can be as specific as they want.
Does God frown on suicide? I don't have any scripture memorized to support my theory; but from what I know of God's character I would think that it is not the killing of oneself that grieves God the most as much as it is the fact that his child does not trust him enough to want to endure (I am not talking about the sick elderly) and that they essentially spit on the blessing of life that GOd has given them. Suicide is a selfish act, an unloving act - it hurts the survivors more than the deceased. And, of course, God does not smile on any form of sin.
Also, someone said earlier that the reason suicide is condemned in the BIble (I'll have to find that passage becuase for the life of me I am not sure that it actually says anything specifically about it) is so that Christians wouldn't choose death as a chance to be with God sooner. The apostle Paul says: "To live is Christ; and to die is gain." Meaning that while he is alive, it is his purpose (as it is for all of us) to love and serve others as Christ did for us; but when we die it's gonna be one heck of a party!
Anyhow, my battery's about to die. I'll revisit this topic later when I have some scripture in hand.

Edited by puzzlegirl, 24 November 2008 - 04:49 PM.

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