[Guest]

After reading though some of the other discussions and debates, ie. Religious debate, War Club sign up, and Athiest discussion, I feel that the concept of theism is misrepressented on this site.

I would like a thread were people can ask questions and talk about theism, and calmly explain why they believe the way they do.

Its a gross misinterpetation that religous people are ignorant and that they dont believe in science and reasoning.

Anyone can post, but in this thread but I would like to keep to the assumption that there is a god, regardless of who you think he/she/it is. The purpose of this is not to argue over the existence of something that can neither be proven nor disproven. Otherwise it will just turn into the religous debate part 2, and I dont think anyone wants that.

And we will define religion as a belief system, not neccissarily organized.

[Guest]

Thats my point. Fact: evolution happens.

Yes, we are agreed. Evolution is part of God's creation, not evidence against it. They absolutely go hand in hand.

To answer your question PG, there are different sects of Buddhism, there is even a sect that believes in a type of afterlife in Heaven with "Amida" (the compassionate Buddha

Thanks, Dnae, I did not know that.

Edited September 10, 2008 by puzzlegirl

[Guest]

This topic was mentioned by dnae, and could get out of hand really fast but we'll go there anyways because its important to our topic.

The majority of Theists do believe in "Truth."

Do you? Why? If not, Why not?

[Guest]

Well a Zennist would say, "You can't be told the Truth, you simply know it when you hear it. It is intuitive."

But as a believer in God, and I stress BELIEVER, I have had too many experiences in my life to not believe, but that is what I believe, do you believe that?? I can't believe that people who have spiritual happenings in their life believe that that was all there was to it. Nothing to believe, no proof. Believe me, if you have had a run in or two with God, you will become a believer. As for my redundancy of the word believe, like most words, it loses it's meaning if used too much so I prefer the word know.

Gotta go on a quickie, interupted

[Guest]

This topic was mentioned by dnae, and could get out of hand really fast but we'll go there anyways because its important to our topic.

The majority of Theists do believe in "Truth."

Do you? Why? If not, Why not?

The concept of truth is purely an individual concept. Who determines truth? I could say the sky is blue, but if you grew up saying the sky is red and in your language or heritage my blue is your red, then we are both technically lying and telling the 'truth' at the same time. Same difference in religion. In Christianity, Christ is the son of god, who came here to save the sinner by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day. This is 'Truth' to the Christians. In Judaism, Christ was not the Son of God, just a prophet and di not rise on the third day. This is their truth.

Truth, morals, right, wrong, it's all a matter of individual perception.

But, lets not forget, 'the right to hit another man ends at the end of your fist and the tip of his nose.'...or something like that.

[Guest]

The concept of truth is purely an individual concept. Who determines truth? I could say the sky is blue, but if you grew up saying the sky is red and in your language or heritage my blue is your red, then we are both technically lying and telling the 'truth' at the same time. Same difference in religion. In Christianity, Christ is the son of god, who came here to save the sinner by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day. This is 'Truth' to the Christians. In Judaism, Christ was not the Son of God, just a prophet and di not rise on the third day. This is their truth.

Truth, morals, right, wrong, it's all a matter of individual perception.

But, lets not forget, 'the right to hit another man ends at the end of your fist and the tip of his nose.'...or something like that.

Well, understand that the word "blue" is a reference to the color perceived by our eyes when it is hit by light with a certain wavelength (I'm not going to look it up). Regardless of what you call it, the sky gives off light at that wavelength, during times of clear weather. That is the truth, and not just an interpretation.

[Guest]

Well, understand that the word "blue" is a reference to the color perceived by our eyes when it is hit by light with a certain wavelength (I'm not going to look it up). Regardless of what you call it, the sky gives off light at that wavelength, during times of clear weather. That is the truth, and not just an interpretation.

That was not quite the point I am making. To make it clearer. if you were brought up with the word red being the equivalent of my word blue then you would not be lying scientific data or not.

[Guest]

I know. My point was that the sky is a constant color (once again with good weather) and that is the truth.

As in religion, like you mentioned above, christians believe Jesus was the son of god, Jews dont. Well, was he the son of god or not? There is a true answer to that question. Regardless if you or I know it or not.

[Guest]

I know. My point was that the sky is a constant color (once again with good weather) and that is the truth.

As in religion, like you mentioned above, christians believe Jesus was the son of god, Jews dont. Well, was he the son of god or not? There is a true answer to that question. Regardless if you or I know it or not.

Right but on an individual level, at this moment in time, the truth is subjective.

Edit: Also yes the sky is a constant color (with good weather) but if to one man says it is red because that is how he knows that color then the man who knows the color to be blue will assume the first to be a liar

Edited September 10, 2008 by Impervious

[Guest]

Right but on an individual level, at this moment in time, the truth is subjective.

No, on an actuall real level. Either he was or he wasnt. We can believe what we want, at any time, but one of the two beliefs is incorrect. There isnt a "maybe" catagory on true/false tests.

[Guest]

No, on an actuall real level. Either he was or he wasnt. We can believe what we want, at any time, but one of the two beliefs is incorrect. There isnt a "maybe" catagory on true/false tests.

That goes into different categories of truth.

Factual and beliefs. Since this is a' Theism" thread I was basing these 'truths' to be based off belief as opposed to actual cold hard facts.

Suppose I should have been clearer on that as well.

[Guest]

No, on an actuall real level. Either he was or he wasnt. We can believe what we want, at any time, but one of the two beliefs is incorrect. There isnt a "maybe" catagory on true/false tests.

I've heard it put this way: "Jesus was either a liar, a lunatic, or Lord" One of these is the truth...we will all know someday no matter what we choose to believe during our lifetime.

[Guest]

I've heard it put this way: "Jesus was either a liar, a lunatic, or Lord" One of these is the truth...we will all know someday no matter what we choose to believe during our lifetime.

That's a good quote. .

[Guest]

I've heard it put this way: "Jesus was either a liar, a lunatic, or Lord" One of these is the truth...we will all know someday no matter what we choose to believe during our lifetime.

Ah yes, the infamous saying...We will know who's right and who's wrong when we die...doesn't leave much room to argue while we are alive though. Wars have been waged with two groups that believe their Truth so blindly that if you say it's not Truth, they will just about fight you over it, especially if you are trying to convert them, hence the frustration sensed by Jehova's Witness at Unreal's doorstep on a Sunday afternoon.

Seriously though, most spiritual leaders will tell you that even though they disagree with your choice of religion, they do believe that we are all heading to the same place. It is in that respect that I believe a Muslim would not be cast into hell by the Christian God if the Muslim was a good person, and vice versa. Even though I am extremely open-minded, I cannot condone any type of "religion" where they do not stress being peaceful and loving thy neighbor simply because of a difference of opion.

Is it really that important that let's say in a Christian's point of view, you must accept Jesus as you savior or you will not be allowed into Heaven? What if you've been a better person than any Christian in the world but you are, I dunno, Jewish for example. Or better yet, you were a member to a religion that had no messiah or "Lord" in the Heavens above.

It's selfishly taken out of context to say Jesus wanted us to follow him and him alone. I think what he meant, trying to be the intuitive person I am, is that you should follow his teachings about being a moral person and causing peace and love onto others. Heck, even Bodhi Dharma, that was Buddha's real name, even preached about the eight fold path, which is almost exactly like the ten commandments. (A little more eccentric of course )

[Guest]

I agree on the most part, Dnae. Everything in the Bible and everything in my personal experience with God shows that he is loving and just. He looks at a man's heart. But...he also very clear that men are without excuse to understand his existance due to his presence in creation (nature) alone. And while not everyone is exposed to the teachings of Jesus, those who are (like almost everyone in America and other free nations) are held to higher accountability. You cannot look God in the face and deny him but expect to get into heaven because you served in a soup kitchen, donated money to AIDS research, and cared for your dying parent. If you are presented with the knowledge of Christ and out-and-out reject him, then it doesn't matter how you live your life. Deeds alone cannot earn you a spot in heaven. Eternal life is a gift of Gad given by grace...it cannot be earned no matter what wonderful things we do.

Will God "punish" the African tribesman for not knowing his name and not adhereing to his word? NO! God knows the difference between ignorance and rejection. However, if that tribesman looks around him and does not acknowledge in his heart that there is something greater than him in the universe, then he will be held accountablt to that.

[Guest]

hence the frustration sensed by Jehova's Witness at Unreal's doorstep on a Sunday afternoon.

Ha ha ha. I can see it now.....

Although there was was this one day back in my Sophomore year in high school when I used to be "Gothic"...(still can't believe i did that)

Anyway, I saw them down the street from my house, So i got all gothed up and when they knocked on my door, my mom was standing be hind me trying not to laugh as their eyes widen when they see this kid wear big black Tripp pants with chains everywhere, and long black thermal with thumb holes cut in them, spiked bracelets and a choker black nail polish , the works...i looked at em and said...what d you want...they turned and walked away...

[Guest]

Ha ha ha. I can see it now.....

Although there was was this one day back in my Sophomore year in high school when I used to be "Gothic"...(still can't believe i did that)

Anyway, I saw them down the street from my house, So i got all gothed up and when they knocked on my door, my mom was standing be hind me trying not to laugh as their eyes widen when they see this kid wear big black Tripp pants with chains everywhere, and long black thermal with thumb holes cut in them, spiked bracelets and a choker black nail polish , the works...i looked at em and said...what d you want...they turned and walked away...

I have alot of people like that at my school..... not good >.<

[unreality]

Looks like I'm going to hell then, aww, shucks ;D

~~~

NM_EJL, if you're going to attack evolution without any scientific proof, I'll have to respond

It effects everything in life. If you read the atheist discussion, they have a long talk abou life being meaningless and that we should just do whatever feels good and then die. Nothing you do in this life matters to you because after you die you just disappear from conciousness. Sp?

Very depressing thoughts.

My faith gives me purpose.

Good for you. Even if the truth is depressing, I'd rather have the truth.

Though theists can never grasp the true purpose about having no purpose. It means there is infinite purpose. It's like the saying how if 'nobody is special then everybody is special' or vice versa.

The beauty is that life has absolutely no meaning - do you know how liberating that is? You're free to do whatever the hell you want, and take advantage of what you are to enjoy life. You said that's very depressing, but you're wrong. I'm an extremely happy, fun-loving person

It also helps me explain the world as I see it. I'm not talking about science or anything like that, I'm talking about the way each and every human sees the world. Evolution, without a designer, doesnt and cant explain things like love, beauty, right and wrong, ect...

Ummm... it does, better than a god. If there is a god, where did they get THEIR ideals from? If they made everything, EVERYTHING, from where did their own morality rules come from?

Anyway, you said evolution can't explain love, beauty, right and wrong, etc? That's utterly false. All of those things are either direct results of evolution or byproducts or misfirings or something similar. Mostly related to mating and social preservation, but I don't feel like getting into each concept and explaining it for you. I could if you really need me to, but hopefully you can take my word for it. All emotions, sensations, etc, we have is because that's the way we've evolved

I see a beautiful sunset from my home in NM (desert sunsets are the best!), where did I get the notion that this is beautiful.

this is called the Argument from Beauty, and if you're going to try and use logic to promote the existence of a higher power, you have to be prepared to be shot down if your logic is totally messed up

http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/godother.html

http://heroesheretics.wordpress.com/2008/0...nt-from-beauty/

Though those don't make the point I would like to, which is that in The God Delusion there is an excellent explanation for beauty as well, though I forget exactly what it is You can't make attacks on evolution, claiming that it doesn't answer something, when you don't know if it does or not. It does. Very well. It fits all the facts

According to an Atheistic view of evolution, beauty should be only seen as things that help me survive and spread my "seeds" so the species can continue. Where does love come from? According to atheists, I should co-mingle with, impregnate, as many females as possible. Why does the majority of cultures throughout the world practice monogomy?

check this out

Another thing it explains is the fact that every culture in the world has a religion.

Lets say that we evoled without design. Who thought up the crack-pot idea that there is/are higher being/s? Yet everyone did! The need for a god (or at least an explanation of existence) is a fundamental part of every human being.

If this need is just a natural phenonon (sp?), why isnt there evidence of religion in other intelligent species, like dolphins or elephants or apes? humans are different.

Yes, humans are different. We are smarter, more evolved. Despite the fact that there other intelligent species that are catching up to us, they are still far far behind in terms of our brains.

As for the cultural need for religion:

(1) That's not globally true. But say it is:

(2) Most of it stems from a leader's or group of leaders' need to control the population. But say it isn't:

(3) As explained in The God Delusion, as well as in other books and whatnot, this is a common logical fallacy. The need for a higher power and the way that religion easily spreads is a misfiring based on parental structures and listening avidly to your 'tribal elders'. The need for mysticism by itself is based on the fact that we have the desire to know as much as possible about things that mean something to our survival - such as the world. But in ancient times, we knew so little about the world around us, ie, before the dawn of modern science or even discoveries of any kind. The need to "fill in the gaps" was common across the world - the need to invent myths to explain phenomena was widespread, and those myths have evolved over time into many of today's modern religions.

**** Please note that this is not a debate. However you made a few unsolicited attacks against evolution and atheist ideals and standpoints, so I had no option but to respond. In my responses I was careful to not provoke or leave anything hanging that could further the debate - this post was purely to answer your provocations and 'disses' on atheism, so please don't respond to my points, or it will become a debate.

[Guest]

**** Please note that this is not a debate. However you made a few unsolicited attacks against evolution and atheist ideals and standpoints, so I had no option but to respond. In my responses I was careful to not provoke or leave anything hanging that could further the debate - this post was purely to answer your provocations and 'disses' on atheism, so please don't respond to my points, or it will become a debate.

And you do it oh so well, I now have a greater respect for you

[Guest]

**** Please note that this is not a debate. However you made a few unsolicited attacks against evolution and atheist ideals and standpoints, so I had no option but to respond. In my responses I was careful to not provoke or leave anything hanging that could further the debate - this post was purely to answer your provocations and 'disses' on atheism, so please don't respond to my points, or it will become a debate.

I am not going to respond to your points because they should not have been made on this thread. You posted very clearly that you don't want people like me to post on yours and I have respected that. Although this thread is open for anyone to post (athiests included) EJL asked that it be kept to theist beliefs and theology.

Anyone can post, but in this thread but I would like to keep to the assumption that there is a god, regardless of who you think he/she/it is. The purpose of this is not to argue over the existence of something that can neither be proven nor disproven. Otherwise it will just turn into the religous debate part 2, and I dont think anyone wants that.

Make all the anti-god statements you like...but please do it on the proper thread.

Edited September 10, 2008 by puzzlegirl

[unreality]

Noted Sorry. It's just NM (the creator of this topic btw) was making attacks on evolution, thus breaking his own original rule anyway. You know what they say - two wrongs make a right ;D Hehe jk. It won't happen again

[Guest]

Make all the anti-god statements you like...but please do it on the proper thread.

Touche'

[Guest]

Noted Sorry. It's just NM (the creator of this topic btw) was making attacks on evolution, thus breaking his own original rule anyway. You know what they say - two wrongs make a right ;D Hehe jk. It won't happen again

If you read what I already wrote, then you wouldnt say that I'm attacking evolution, just evolution without a designer. thanks for the input.

[Guest]

UR, this is a discussion and not a debate. While you saw some things in my posts that compeled you write, I will do the same.

I read the websites that you offered and am still not convinced. Since we are suppose to discuss on this thread with the pre-supposed notion that god exists, that is how I will respond.

from http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/godother.html

"The philosophical objections to this argument has already been presented in our section on the Teleological argument. Our objection here is more colloquial, more direct. It involves a simple question: is there really so much beauty in nature that we forget the ugliness in it? How do we account for the ugliness in nature? The following anecdote by Joseph McCabe (1867-1955) serves to show the naivete of the theist's position:

An agnostic friend of mine was invited by the his clergyman to regard a beautiful rose and say that he did not see the working of a supreme intelligence in its production. He had just come from a bed on which a beautiful and innocent girl was being slowly killed by a parasite microbe, and he silenced his pastor by asking if God had also created the microbe. [2]

The point is that many theist prefer to see the world through their own rose-tinted glasses and forget about its ugliness. There is beauty is nature, yes, but there is ugliness too. And until the ugliness can be satisfactorily explained away, the proof of a benevolent deity is lacking:"

This does not refute the idea of Beauty pointing to god, it just offers a copout and reinforces the arguement. Just because there are things in this world that are ugly doesnt mean that god doesnt exist. The christian view (jews and muslims believe this also) of the world is that it is fallen due to sin. Of cource there are ugly things, and they point to god in the same way the beauty does.

[akaslickster]

You have a long way to catch up to religion debate.

I think this was a good idea to have it in the proper thread. Too many Noob's are just posting anything (spam) anywhere they please just to move up in count. I don't believe it is such a big deal.

I may go back to religion or I may not . I 'll wait and see which way the wind goes on that issue. I had a very good personal experience lately, and I certainly did'nt do any praying for it.

[Guest]

I'm trying to have another religious debate... sometimes it looks that way though. I'll try to stay on topic from now on.

and the topic right now is "truth"