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#21 bonanova

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 09:16 AM


Wolfgang, I think the point that asks for clarification is this:
Must each prisoner wait, outside the room and blindfolded, until previous prisoners have taken their positions?

Yes...thats right....he should wait until the previous prisoner is standing in his raw and took his position. 
Spoiler for in this case...
Nice approach.
I agree tho that the warden might object.
Also, wouldn't the nineteenth prisoner also need to execute this [seemingly one-time-only] ploy?
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#22 Prime

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:04 AM

 

 

 


Wolfgang, I think the point that asks for clarification is this:
Must each prisoner wait, outside the room and blindfolded, until previous prisoners have taken their positions?

Yes...thats right....he should wait until the previous prisoner is standing in his raw and took his position. 
Spoiler for in this case...
Nice approach.
I agree tho that the warden might object.
Also, wouldn't the nineteenth prisoner also need to execute this [seemingly one-time-only] ploy?

 

I didn't mean that as one-time-only ploy

Spoiler for how else?

I say, let them get executed.


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Past prime, actually.


#23 CaptainEd

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 04:33 PM

In addition to being apparently impossible, this puzzle has a number of details we haven't used yet:

* there is an "unknown" number of prisoners.

* the unknown number is greater than 14

* the prisoner can't see anything until he (alone) arrives in the room, at which point he is "unfolded", presumably now able to see the earlier arrivals. (From the standpoint of this puzzle, why bother? he can see the other rows, or at least where they are supposed to be, but he doesn't know what color he is. Why bother to let him see where the rows are?)

* the prisoners can arrange a plan beforehand.

 

So, I'm wondering, in the spirit of the slight cheating that various solutions have proposed, what other kind of cheating might be acceptable to Wolfgang and the Warden.

 

Do we imagine that the prisoners themselves get to arrange the order in which they enter the room? (How would that help? I dunno...)

Notice that having the "like colored prisoners fidget" has the flaw of annoying the warden, but it also has the flaw that it can't be sure of working for the first few prisoners, as not all the rows will be populated at first.

We can see how the first two prisoners can arrange themselves so that all four rows' locations are unambiguously visible. But, short of opening and closing their eyes to encode the next arrival's color, I don't see how to cheat surreptitiously enough to get it past Warden Wolfgang.


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#24 CaptainEd

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 04:54 PM

Spoiler for Glad we had this little cheat..I mean, chat

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#25 wolfgang

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 07:20 PM

I can add something which may help you... The raws may face the door or the opposit direction!


Edited by wolfgang, 18 January 2013 - 07:21 PM.

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#26 araver

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 12:15 AM

So far I'm at a loss here .. just thinking about the 2-color-version of the problem makes my head spin for a second

 

Spoiler for ...

 

Just thought I'd share my thoughts - haven't done this exercise in a very long time :)

EDIT: Spoiler titles don't like me.


Edited by araver, 19 January 2013 - 12:19 AM.

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#27 bonanova

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 12:15 AM

I can add something which may help you... The raws may face the door or the opposit direction!

 

Continuing with the community solve approach, can we clarify:

  1. Must all the persons in a particular row face the same direction?
  2. If prisoners in say the Yellow row can face in differing directions does that constitute [illegal] communication?
  3. Can the first two prisoners choose the time that they [legally] alter their position, at any time up to the last prisoner takes his place?

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#28 bonanova

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 01:01 AM

Spoiler for araver may have hit on the key

 
Hey araver, LTNS!
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#29 bonanova

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 07:38 AM

Another point to clarify.

 

Must the rows be parallel, and in particular Y-G-R-B order?

OP seems to suggest this condition.

 

+-------------------------+

|                         |

|      Y Y Y Y Y . . .    |

|      G G G . . . . .    |

Door   R R R R R R . .    |

|      B B B B B . . .    |

|                         |

|                         |

+-------------------------+

 

Or could the rows e.g. all start at the middle of the room, and grow outward toward the four walls, in any sequence?

Say Yellow to the north, Green to the south, Red to the east and Blue to the west?


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#30 wolfgang

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 07:11 PM

 


I can add something which may help you... The raws may face the door or the opposit direction!

 

Continuing with the community solve approach, can we clarify:

  1. Must all the persons in a particular row face the same direction?

  2. If prisoners in say the Yellow row can face in differing directions does that constitute [illegal] communication?

  3. Can the first two prisoners choose the time that they [legally] alter their position, at any time up to the last prisoner takes his place?

 

During making raws...some of them  can be..back to back (in any raw)...but by reaching the last prisoner,they all shoud be at the same direction


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