60 replies to this topic

[Yoruichi-san]

Um...Sisteine Chapel was Renaissance, not Victorian art ;P.  Yes your argument only took account art, whereas my statement was meant to mean "art taken in conjunction with other artifacts (such as descriptions on tablets, etc)"...that's why I put the "art" in parenthesis, along with "tablets,etc", rather than just saying "based off art" .  I agree with you that art is obviously not always an exact depiction of reality, but I trust the ability of archeologists to be able to tell the difference b/w, like, that a drawing of a man with a jackal's head with corresponding hieroglyphics that say "Anubis, god of [whatever he was god of...I forget]" does not mean ppl at the time had jackal's heads, just as they can tell a statue of the Madonna with child is not representative of the normal society, but drawings of a pharaoh and his servants who are bare chested, with the corresponding corroborating written evidence suggests that the men of that period went about bare-chested.

 

It is common agreement among archeologists/anthropologists (again I emphasize they base their conclusions off corroborating written evidence, not just the art) that bare breasts were not considered immodest in ancient Egypt.  I never stated that clothing served only for protective purposes (stop putting words into my mouth ), I agreed with flame that it had status purposes as well, I was just adding the protective qualities no one else had brought up yet.  What I disagree with is that there exists innate human "embarrassment" at nakedness in itself. 

 

Even if modern day sports only allowed men viewers (or victorian era sports), there would still be social awkwardness if the athletes turned up naked.  As a contemporary living at this time, I can attest to this ;P.   

 

If you choose not to accept the conclusions of archeologists/anthropologists etc, that is your choice.  But for those who do, my assertion holds:  the historical record suggests that there was not an innate human 'social awkwardness' at nakedness, but rather one developed over time in societies over the course of human existence.  I haven't done enough research, but I suspect that it corresponded to the rise of mono-theistic religions . 

Edited by Yoruichi-san, 21 February 2013 - 12:59 AM.

[phaze]

 I haven't done enough research, but I suspect that it corresponded to the rise of mono-theistic religions . 

 

Be sure to include in your research an explanation for Japans attire along with their predominant animistic Shinto/Buddhist beliefs.

Then as a practical sideline would you feel awkward about going to a major event without make-up? 

My quest is not to discover that we feel embarrassed about nakedness but feel embarrassed about our self-image and so conform to what we believe to be an acceptable dress/undress for a culture or situation.

[Yoruichi-san]

I don't wear make-up...that should answer your question ;P.

 

Being conscious of our self-image seems like it makes perfect evolutionary sense...being aesthetically pleasing to the opposite sex increases chances of mating.  Those who spend extra time, effort, and/or resources on being more attractive are giving themselves an advantage, i.e. for those who are naturally equally attractive, the ones who are more attentive to their looks are more likely to be evolutionarily successful.

 

From a evolutionary psychology/sociology point of view, insecurity is an interesting beast.  Insecurity makes you try harder, i.e. if you're insecure in your job, you will give it 110%, while, on the other hand, if you know you're irreplaceable, you're more likely to take long lunch hours .  An insecure female is more likely to double/triple check her appearance at every opportunity and also more receptive to the attentions of the opposite sex, i.e. more likely to 'jump in bed' with a man who pays them compliments .  

 

I discussed other reasons for female insecurity previously.  Male insecurity I suspect has to do with power, as well as how hard they try to attract mates, mate, etc.  Making someone insecure is a good way to control them, and males do exhibit the whole 'alpha male' dynamic. 

 

I don't really like the term, but I'm going to use it:  'memetically' speaking, insecurity does make sense.  It reminds me of the tortoise and the hare...the hare, feeling 'secure' in his superior speed slacks off and ultimately loses, while the 'insecure' tortoise keeps on plowing through for the win .

[phaze]

From a evolutionary psychology/sociology point of view, insecurity is an interesting beast.  Insecurity makes you try harder, i.e. if you're insecure in your job, you will give it 110%, while, on the other hand, if you know you're irreplaceable, you're more likely to take long lunch hours .  An insecure female is more likely to double/triple check her appearance at every opportunity and also more receptive to the attentions of the opposite sex, i.e. more likely to 'jump in bed' with a man who pays them compliments . 

 

But the multi-million dollar question is if it affects our attire any more than status does...

[Yoruichi-san]

Why is that the multi-million dollar question?  I do not think they are mutually exclusive.  In fact, I would say they are very much inter-related in cultures.  Dressing in an expensive fitted suit, for example, increases your perceived status as well as your physical attractiveness.  People who are most concerned with their status in societies also tend to be those most concerned with their self-image...

 

Also I don't think the ones most concerned with their self image are necessarily the most likely to conform.  I think a lot of the most concerned try to get 'nouveau' or 'cutting edge' fashions, try to be the trend-setter rather than the conformist. 

[phaze]

Comical Interlude

 

 

Friend of the family on the phone: It is just going to be a quick visit so there is no reason to tidy your house

 

Later Conversation:

 

Wife: Oh, he is coming over, we need to tidy up.

 

Husband: But he said there is no need to tidy up.

 

Wife: {pause} We need to tidy up.

 

Husband:

[Yoruichi-san]

Speaking of comical interludes...somewhat back on topic...(Warning:  Proceed with a sense of humor)

 

Sometime a long long time ago in a place not that far away...

 

Caveman Grog:  Mmm...meat...gooood...gooood we make rocks pointy to kill animals

 

Caveman Bob:  And gooood we make hot orange-y stuff to make meat brown...brown meat gooood...mmmm...

 

Caveman Grog:  Yes, hot orange-y stuff make Grog warm, but white wet stuff fall from sky that make Grog shiver

 

Caveman Bob:  But animal not shiver...maybe soft brown stuff they have on skin make animal warm?

 

Caveman Grog:  Hmm...if we take animal skin and soft brown stuff from kill, maybe we warm too...

 

Caveman Bob:   And we use fire to make animal skin not wet so not get stinky.

 

Caveman Grog:  Have oppo-sa-ble thumbs to make stones sharp and hold stones to cut off animal skin . 

 

Caveman Bob:  Yes, oppo-sa-be thumbs gooood...hehe... 

 

 

...and thousands of years later, their descendants adopted the names Abercombie, and Fitch

Edited by Yoruichi-san, 22 February 2013 - 02:44 AM.

[phaze]

Was my comical interlude off topic?? (Maybe you need to think about it longer)

 

How do we know that ancient cavemen spoke Buffy Speak?

[Yoruichi-san]

Um...unless "tidy up" is an euphemism for something, I don't see what it has to do with clothes or the lack of...

 

Only the fashion-forward ancient cavemen spoke Buffy speak ;P.

[phaze]

@ Ysan had to do with feelings of inadequacy (the state of the house).  While you approaching this issue top down by noticing actions and establishing motives I am approaching it bottom up by noticing motives and seeing if they would explain actions.

 

The Nightmare

 

Zim was in the middle of a hunt. Crouching in the long grass the hunting party had spied their prey.  The hunt leader turned and saw Zim. He then wordlessly pointed to where his grass skirt should have been.  Zim realising that he was not wearing a grass skirt awoke to see that the fire had gone out.

 

What was the source of Zims embarrassment?