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#31 phaze

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 10:51 PM

Can anyone explain how it went from semi practical reasons (status, protection) for wearing clothing to an embarrassing situation (usually for both parties) if someone is accidentally caught clothing compromised?


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#32 Yoruichi-san

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 11:01 PM

I'd love to...but I have go to a dentist appt so I don't have time atm...

 

I'd like to point out that it's interesting to note that in earlier cultures, Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, etc, there was actually less 'social awkwardness' at nakedness than in later cultures, like the Victorian era, which suggests that it didn't go from practical to embarrassing, but rather there was an evolution that went along with culture/historical movements (and religious movements).


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#33 phaze

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 11:22 PM

Unfortunately it is hard to verify with an ancient Greek, Roman or Egyptian that there was an acceptable/unacceptable state of attire. We really need is some input from someone who has grown up in a traditionally clothing minimalist culture about if there remain socially accepted rules about what is worn/not worn.


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#34 Yoruichi-san

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 12:18 AM

Lol well personally I'd trust an analysis of, like, the culture based on many artifacts (art, tablets, etc) over what one person testifies to...especially after they've been paid off in Oreos by phaze (yes, it is truly the food of the gods)...;P


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Women are definitely stronger. We are [Fe]males, after all...

Some of what makes me me is real, some of what makes me me is imaginary...I guess I'm just complex. ;P

<3 BBC's Sherlock, the series and the man. "Smart is the new sexy."

Chromatic Witch links now on my 'About Me' page!  Episode 3 is finally here!

When life hands me lemons, I make invisible ink.


#35 phaze

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 02:18 AM

Lol well personally I'd trust an analysis of, like, the culture based on many artifacts (art, tablets, etc) over what one person testifies to...especially after they've been paid off in Oreos by phaze (yes, it is truly the food of the gods)...;P

Have you been to a modern art gallery? It is that just based on paintings one gets the impression that there is no 'social awkwardness' at having unexpected company whilst being sans clothes. Victorian era religious based art being possibly the worst offender in this misunderstanding. For this reason I'd rather some recent portrayal that is not from the cookie monster.


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#36 Yoruichi-san

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 05:02 AM

Lol well personally I'd trust an analysis of, like, the culture based on many artifacts (art, tablets, etc) over what one person testifies to...especially after they've been paid off in Oreos by phaze (yes, it is truly the food of the gods)...;P

Have you been to a modern art gallery? It is that just based on paintings one gets the impression that there is no 'social awkwardness' at having unexpected company whilst being sans clothes. Victorian era religious based art being possibly the worst offender in this misunderstanding. For this reason I'd rather some recent portrayal that is not from the cookie monster.

 

Wait, whaaaaa???  First off, how is modern art related to Victorian art?  And show me examples of these so called Victorian era religious art that you speak of...do you mean like the depictions of Jesus on the cross?  I don't think anyone would 'misunderstand' an emaciated figure of christ dying or any sort of depiction that gives a naked figure a dark, 'punished' tone as suggestive of social freedom in clothing...

 

I have been to art galleries, thank you very much, although I dislike modern art.  I.e. the Tate Modern was not to my taste, but the British Museum, the Louvre, the Musee D'Orsay, etc I adored.  

 

And it's not 'the cookie monster' making this analysis based on the artifacts (including, but not limited to the art) from those eras, it's archeologists, anthropologists, etc.  For example, in Egypt, the top hem of women's dresses could be worn below the breasts, i.e. revealing the breasts...would that have been acceptable in the Victorian era?


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Women are definitely stronger. We are [Fe]males, after all...

Some of what makes me me is real, some of what makes me me is imaginary...I guess I'm just complex. ;P

<3 BBC's Sherlock, the series and the man. "Smart is the new sexy."

Chromatic Witch links now on my 'About Me' page!  Episode 3 is finally here!

When life hands me lemons, I make invisible ink.


#37 phaze

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 08:58 PM

The cookie monster was a reference to your oreos quip for a real life testimony. I am quite sure that being an fictional unclothed muppet his views would be quite distorted. His probable reply would be "Cookie?"  By Victorian era religious art I was not referring solely to depictions of the cross.  If they were as influential in producing the 'social awkwardness' you describe surely they would have demanded that the ceiling in the Sistine chapel be appropriately defaced and depictions of "Madonna and child" be hidden in the basement.


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#38 phaze

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 11:50 PM

And now for something completely different.

What part of the evolutionary process involved wearing clothes?

The more I think about it clothes apart from being protection against cold or a display of status (helps us stand out) are more of a mask that allows us to fit in with what we think society deems noteworthy (a mark of conforming to expectations). This is most evident in the realm of womens fashion. This means that your question can be adapted to "What part of the evolutionary process involved us being insecure about our appearance?"


Edited by phaze, 19 February 2013 - 11:50 PM.

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#39 Yoruichi-san

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 04:08 AM

I made no such claims about art influencing 'social awkwardness', my claim was that based on artifacts (including but not limited to art...there was corroboration from tablets, descriptions, etc), archaeologists  anthropologists and the like could make some pretty good analysis of what was considered socially acceptable clothing in the ancient world.  I.e. in Egypt, bare breasts were not considered immodest for women, and in Greek, there was even a mandate that male athletes participate naked.  I think it was the olympics but I don't remember exactly.  The exact reason for the mandate is not so clear, but a popular theory is that there was a woman who dressed in male athletes garb who won once and so to avoid the "embarrassment" of having a female win.  Having a female win was considered more embarrassing than being naked...what does that tell you?

 

Um...did you see my previous post about women's clothing?  I would say society, which has been dominated by men make women insecure/weak...to keep them docile and home-makers.  This makes senses from an evolutionary perspective, as if the female you mate with is having children and taking care of them (so they survive), your genes are more likely to be passed on.

 

 

Edit:  Oh yeah, there's also the whole hygienic benefits of clothing, i.e. protection from diseases transmitted by bodily fluids...clothing is protective in many ways. 


Edited by Yoruichi-san, 20 February 2013 - 04:14 AM.

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Women are definitely stronger. We are [Fe]males, after all...

Some of what makes me me is real, some of what makes me me is imaginary...I guess I'm just complex. ;P

<3 BBC's Sherlock, the series and the man. "Smart is the new sexy."

Chromatic Witch links now on my 'About Me' page!  Episode 3 is finally here!

When life hands me lemons, I make invisible ink.


#40 phaze

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 09:27 PM

For my theories to hold true (that we use clothing or the lack thereof is a social mask) I do not need to compare our current standards of dress with another culture who has different standards.  All I need to do is establish if they have their own standard of dress.  I cannot do this by examining artefacts as this could just be telling me that their standards are different to ours rather than  implying a complete lack of standards. I believe if you look into Greek culture a bit further you will see that although athletes participated naked that only the gents were allowed to attend ( http://ancienthistor...08OlympicWo.htm).  I believe this is an indication that even in this environment there was some dress code.  It is also interesting to note that while in Egypt while breasts were depicted as being exposed that they still wore clothes.  The reason why I would prefer talking to someone contemporary is that it is hard to get an indication from artefacts if these fashions were considered prudish, enlightened or they were genuinely uncommitted about the way they dress. This said however if artefacts show that they had a similar style of dress it may be an indication of a dress standard.   Not knowing the culture of the time we cannot be assured that a dress standard change shows different classes (statuses) or that they felt that others would be so accepting of them that their style of dress did not matter.  If the style of dress didn't matter then and only then can you state that clothing solely serves rudimentary functional purposes (such as being a physical protective covering for hygiene or protection against the cold).

 

What I was attempting to prove with art is that artefacts on there own are not going to provide enough cultural information to know what people are thinking therefore I tried showing you that a misunderstanding could easily be achieved via the artefacts of Victorian art because of the following quote

 

there was actually less 'social awkwardness' at nakedness than in later cultures, like the Victorian era, which suggests that it didn't go from practical to embarrassing, but rather there was an evolution that went along with culture/historical movements (and religious movements).


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