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A simple (*not* bonanova 'simple') hat problem


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18 replies to this topic

#11 bushindo

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 06:08 AM

That's the other part of the puzzle ;). Plasmid was very close, the answer to that part just needs to be refined to fit the specified rules laid down by his oh-so-munificent majesty. ;P


Well, here's are some strategies
Spoiler for general strategy


Minor details about the fish lines
Spoiler for details

Edited by bushindo, 13 May 2012 - 06:14 AM.

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#12 Yoruichi-san

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 06:34 AM

Well, here's are some strategies

Spoiler for general strategy


Minor details about the fish lines
Spoiler for details


An excellent strategy! Although, in the story, I was trying to convey (and I guess didn't) that they didn't have a lot of time to come up with a strategy of say "you raise your hand when to indicate a particular arrangement". But major points to Bushindo for his solution.

Also, I was trying to convey (by the rules) that they couldn't speak or look at each other until their respective gong rang, so there needed to be another element to alert them to the others raising their hands, hence the fishing line, which Bushindo correctly arranged. Looking at the final shape...well, it's befitting the most benevolent king, don't you think? ;)

Anyways, let me ask this question then. If there was no time to devise and agree on a strategy, hence allowing the fishermen only to raise their hand when they knew their own color of hat, what is the algorithm for the first fisherman?
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Women are definitely stronger. We are [Fe]males, after all...

Some of what makes me me is real, some of what makes me me is imaginary...I guess I'm just complex. ;P

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#13 bushindo

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 08:12 PM

An excellent strategy! Although, in the story, I was trying to convey (and I guess didn't) that they didn't have a lot of time to come up with a strategy of say "you raise your hand when to indicate a particular arrangement". But major points to Bushindo for his solution.

Also, I was trying to convey (by the rules) that they couldn't speak or look at each other until their respective gong rang, so there needed to be another element to alert them to the others raising their hands, hence the fishing line, which Bushindo correctly arranged. Looking at the final shape...well, it's befitting the most benevolent king, don't you think? ;)

Anyways, let me ask this question then. If there was no time to devise and agree on a strategy, hence allowing the fishermen only to raise their hand when they knew their own color of hat, what is the algorithm for the first fisherman?


This is puzzling, since a previously-agreed-upon strategy is the hallmark of these everyone-must-be-correct-to-win problems. I would like some clarification. Do you mean to say "If there was no time to devise and agree on a strategy, hence allowing the fishermen only to raise their hand when they knew their own color of hat, what is the algorithm for the first fisherman such that the 5 participants are guaranteed to win?" Or perhaps you mean to ask for an algorithm for the first fisherman such that the chance of fishermen winning is as high as possible?

Edited by bushindo, 13 May 2012 - 08:16 PM.

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#14 Yoruichi-san

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 11:02 PM

This is puzzling, since a previously-agreed-upon strategy is the hallmark of these everyone-must-be-correct-to-win problems. I would like some clarification. Do you mean to say "If there was no time to devise and agree on a strategy, hence allowing the fishermen only to raise their hand when they knew their own color of hat, what is the algorithm for the first fisherman such that the 5 participants are guaranteed to win?" Or perhaps you mean to ask for an algorithm for the first fisherman such that the chance of fishermen winning is as high as possible?


Honestly, I haven't looked at enough of this kind of problem to know what the hallmarks are, but in this situation, the fishermen should be able to solve what color hat they are wearing through just logic, and not strategy, given that the fishermen figure out a way to alert all the other players when they've figured out their hat (which you did). I could ask for the algorithms for all the fisherman, but I think asking for the first fisherman's algorithm/set of rules will suffice to make people consider about all the possibilities. I put the gongs in to make it easier to mark the time and define the algorithm.
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Women are definitely stronger. We are [Fe]males, after all...

Some of what makes me me is real, some of what makes me me is imaginary...I guess I'm just complex. ;P

<3 BBC's Sherlock, the series and the man. "Smart is the new sexy."

Chromatic Witch links now on my 'About Me' page!

When life hands me lemons, I make invisible ink.

#15 bushindo

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 04:23 AM

Honestly, I haven't looked at enough of this kind of problem to know what the hallmarks are, but in this situation, the fishermen should be able to solve what color hat they are wearing through just logic, and not strategy, given that the fishermen figure out a way to alert all the other players when they've figured out their hat (which you did). I could ask for the algorithms for all the fisherman, but I think asking for the first fisherman's algorithm/set of rules will suffice to make people consider about all the possibilities. I put the gongs in to make it easier to mark the time and define the algorithm.


My impression of the claim you intend the BD to prove is the following:

Claim: Given that the fishermen figure out a way to alert all the other players when they've figured out their hat, then the fishermen should be able to solve what color hat they are wearing through just logic; that is, they do not need to confer among themselves for a common strategy.

In other words, let's say that we remove the fishlines from the problem, and just assume that there is a royal announcer. Every time participant X raises his hand, the royal announcer would then intone within all participant's hearing "Participant X is ready to guess his hat color". Are you saying that, without absolutely no talking among themselves before the game start, the 5 participants can logically come to a solution that is guaranteed to win?

Edited by bushindo, 14 May 2012 - 04:25 AM.

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#16 Yoruichi-san

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 04:36 AM

My impression of the claim you intend the BD to prove is the following:

Claim: Given that the fishermen figure out a way to alert all the other players when they've figured out their hat, then the fishermen should be able to solve what color hat they are wearing through just logic; that is, they do not need to confer among themselves for a common strategy.

In other words, let's say that we remove the fishlines from the problem, and just assume that there is a royal announcer. Every time participant X raises his hand, the royal announcer would then intone within all participant's hearing "Participant X is ready to guess his hat color". Are you saying that, without absolutely no talking among themselves before the game start, the 5 participants can logically come to a solution that is guaranteed to win?


Yep :), assuming that each fisherman will raise their hand pretty much as soon as they know their own hat color.
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Women are definitely stronger. We are [Fe]males, after all...

Some of what makes me me is real, some of what makes me me is imaginary...I guess I'm just complex. ;P

<3 BBC's Sherlock, the series and the man. "Smart is the new sexy."

Chromatic Witch links now on my 'About Me' page!

When life hands me lemons, I make invisible ink.

#17 bushindo

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 05:32 AM

Yep :), assuming that each fisherman will raise their hand pretty much as soon as they know their own hat color.


Ah, I see what you are getting at then. Your claim is absolutely right. This is a superbly designed puzzle, by the way.
Spoiler for first man's strategy

Edited by bushindo, 14 May 2012 - 05:35 AM.

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#18 Yoruichi-san

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 01:24 AM

Ah, I see what you are getting at then. Your claim is absolutely right. This is a superbly designed puzzle, by the way.

Spoiler for first man's strategy


Nice job :). Thanks for the compliment, although I think it took me longer to design it than for you to solve it...in two ways...*whistling*
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Women are definitely stronger. We are [Fe]males, after all...

Some of what makes me me is real, some of what makes me me is imaginary...I guess I'm just complex. ;P

<3 BBC's Sherlock, the series and the man. "Smart is the new sexy."

Chromatic Witch links now on my 'About Me' page!

When life hands me lemons, I make invisible ink.

#19 bushindo

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 04:19 AM

Nice job :). Thanks for the compliment, although I think it took me longer to design it than for you to solve it...in two ways...*whistling*


The first solution was really just a clumsy variant of the canonical solution. After that first solution I thought this is a pretty neat puzzle, but it turns out the puzzle is even more elegant than I thought. Thanks a lot for sharing this gem.
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