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#21 Izzy

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 01:17 PM

At what point exactly did you decide science can't describe love? Paraphrasing Wiki:

It's been shown that love is a mammalian drive, similar to hunger and thirst occurring in three stages: lust, attraction, and attachment. Increased testosterone and estrogen levels spark the initial lust. Recent studies in neuroscience have indicated that as people fall in love, the brain consistently releases a certain set of chemicals, including pheromones, dopamine, norepinephrine, and serotonin, which act in a manner similar to amphetamines, stimulating the brain's pleasure center and leading to side effects such as increased heart rate, loss of appetite and sleep, and an intense feeling of excitement. Attachment is the bonding that promotes relationships lasting for many years and even decades, has been linked to higher levels of the chemicals oxytocin and vasopressin to a greater degree than short-term relationships have. Studies have shown that brain scans of those infatuated by love display a resemblance to those with a mental illness. Love creates activity in the same area of the brain where hunger, thirst, and drug cravings create activity.

So, MDMA, or 3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine stimulates the brain similarly to dopamine, serotonin, and norepinephrine. When someone uses it, it actually dumps all their serotonin, and replaces it with MDMA, because the brain prefers it. Of course, this is bad, because the MDMA presence is only temporary and the serotonin levels need to be rebuilt (which takes time). Consequently, MDMA users have a recovery period when they're pretty depressed, and anything from loving. Ergo, the absence of serotonin caused this, meaning it is, without a doubt, an agent of love.

EVERYTHING in life is chemical. Moreover, just because science can't describe something (which most certainly isn't the case here), you don't automatically default to being right at science's expense. :rolleyes: If a five year old described love as a phenomenon occurring because a magical dragon turned the enchanted tree into ashes and pixies fly around sprinkling this dust on everyone, well, she isn't right. Now, if she's proven to be wrong, and a little boy instead says "Oh, no, it's the gnomes that dispense the ash!", he isn't right just because the girl was wrong. He's just as wrong as she is. ...Though, that's possibly a bad analogy because science actually knows what it's talking about and isn't merely speculating.. meh.

Longish (eh, not really) post. Enjoy, Nick. :P

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#22 EDM

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 10:17 PM

:duh: :rolleyes:

2 things:
1. You misinterpreted me and I'm not interested in stupid chemicals.......plus, i'm a science student myself; so I don't have a problem with it.....:P :D
2. Love and Lust are 2 Separate things, interconnected by a few thin strands; When I say science can't describe love, i'm talking about our decisions and our choices about how much we love someone;
for e.g: If you had to choose between your family and your BF/GF, would you chose your family? It may be much easier to dump the person you're dating and to stick to your folks, right? (though it's probably gonna be a tough decision if the person's the love of your life.....)

Love is all about emotion and feelings; lust is the rest of it.......you can't say that chemicals can create 'love', but you can say that they create the feelings of lust and infatuation, etc.

The brain may be able to handle many aspects, but even if a person is unable to think clearly, the emotions still exist; we may just see it differently.....

*oh, and science, although quite right in many respects, can speculate as well.......it starts with assumption and speculation and theories, which people try to prove or disprove......so i'm basically right in one way....the way i was talking about.....:P :D

New Question to you, Izzy: Have you ever fallen in love before? have you ever dated, and do you Love your family??? think about that and read what i've said.......:D

and most things in life are scientific, not chemical alone....some things are spiritual, too (though you'll probably blow up another list of chemicals to prove your point; which makes me think that you're the type of person who always wants to have the last word and be right all the time......:rolleyes:)
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#23 Izzy

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 12:31 AM

1.Then explain what you meant, because you weren't very clear."Science can't explain it, but we can" really seems to imply some sort of religious explanation, meaning you're taking it entirely on faith, and are, beyond a reasonable doubt, wrong.

Chemicals aren't stupid. Chemicals literally make up your every action and every thought you think. Every choice you make is determined by a balance of chemicals in your brain. They control every emotion, including love, btw.

2. Lust is a part of love, of course they aren't the same thing. Well, sexual love, anyway. Obviously "Oh, I love my cat" has no part in that sort of love, but that isn't what this thread is discussing, so the point is irrelevant. It depends on the situation. If my family dislikes my bf/gf to the extent that they're trying to separate me from him/her, I'm going to choose my partner over them, because they're being intolerant morons. If it's like "Your plane is on fire.. you can save one person", then *shrugs* I'd rather not think about it.

...What. Yes, chemicals create the feelings of love, and we call these feelings "love", ergo chemicals create love? I don't understand where you were going with that.

You weren't right whatsoever (with this statement: "Infatuations with chemicals isn't love: it just happens to give similar emotions, but it's never complete"). Yeah, it starts as speculation, but science has gotten to the point where they can explain love, and it's all backed up by models, and has been crafted into a theory. If it were wrong, it would die under scrutiny. ..It hasn't.

Have I fallen in love? Eh. Sort of, but I don't want to talk about it because it's complicated and didn't have a very happy ending. =/ I've dated, and yeah, I love my family. I wasn't arguing about what you were saying about the levels of love. I understand that, I was just saying that since the chemicals form the emotions, of course the emotions are complete. Look, EVERYTHING in our life is chemical, and science is the tool we use to figure these things out. If everything we've ever observed, in the history of observance is chemical, why would love be exempt from this? It has a chemical explanation that makes complete sense, so what doesn't make sense is to ignore the explanation and come up with something you think is better for the sake of doing so. (By all means, questioning the standard for further scientific inquiry is an *awesome* thing, but in cases where we already know full well what's going on, it's a massive waste of time.)

Spiritual? Yeah? Prove it. It has nothing to do with having the last word or me being right. If I *am* right, obviously I'll spread the rightness. If I'm wrong, so be it.

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#24 phaze

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 01:48 AM

Not a lot. Our choice is pretty much limited to whether or not we decide to act on our feelings.


Talking from personal experience initially this choice is very significant (before everything get :wacko:). Yes, sometimes the feelings will influence your choices, but also your choices (or other peoples choices for those in a pre-arranged marriage scenario) will influence your feelings.
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#25 EDM

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 08:23 PM

Izzy, i knew you were gonna do something like this.....;) :D

anyway, although the chemicals are responsible for the infatuations and stuff, they aren't necessarily the basis of love, are they? that's what i'm trying to say.....it's YOUR choice whether you love someone, not the chemicals.......chocolate has been proven to create the feelings of love (or something like that).....does that actually MEAN that we're in love? NO!!! :lol: see where i'm going with this....???

sry 'bout the create love bit....i meant create the feelings......:blush:

I never expected you to get the spiritual bit, so let's just stick to the scientific point for now......science is too.......practical. Love stories aren't based on chemicals. They are usually based on life.......circumstances......and unfortunately, math.....:)

*You know...whenever we get into these discussions, i always feel like it's better to talk on the phone, or something. It's a lot easier to explain stuff.......plus, i'm a terrible writer/typer, as you've probably noticed........:unsure: *
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#26 Izzy

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 09:06 PM

anyway, although the chemicals are responsible for the infatuations and stuff, they aren't necessarily the basis of love, are they? that's what i'm trying to say.....it's YOUR choice whether you love someone, not the chemicals.......chocolate has been proven to create the feelings of love (or something like that).....does that actually MEAN that we're in love? NO!!! :lol: see where i'm going with this....???

*You know...whenever we get into these discussions, i always feel like it's better to talk on the phone, or something. It's a lot easier to explain stuff.......plus, i'm a terrible writer/typer, as you've probably noticed........:unsure: *

Bro you have no control over whether or not you love someone. Your entire personality (from the sports you like, to intellect, and yes, love) is predetermined by your genetic make up, and there's no way to get over this. It's why you laugh at the jokes you think are funny and why you like certain colors more than other. (Okay, there's also a nurture component, but its influence here is limited.) It's your choice whether or not you act on your feelings, but it's not your choice if you love someone, because you're a victim of chance. Think about the people you've liked over the years, and notice the similarities. They aren't similar by coincidence, you and everyone else are attracted to a certain type of person (the specific qualities can be anything, from intelligence to hair length) because of your DNA.

I'll take your point the pseudo-love from chocolate and drugs doesn't mean you're in love because it's a temporary effect, but with MDMA (far more than chocolate), the brain activity is almost indistinguishable, and for that period of time, you *are* in love.

Haha, I know what you mean. Sometimes it's just like "Screw it, I'll make a video post.."

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#27 EDM

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 11:51 PM

i'll take the DNA bit, but the chemicals.......:unsure:

true love is from you, not the chemicals........so that's all i'm typing......if you want me to argue...i'm gonna talk....:D
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#28 Izzy

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 12:05 AM

Well, okay, think about it in simpler terms. Your body produces adrenaline (a chemical) to give you that extra boost when you need it, right? You can feel the adrenaline, and you know it's a real thing. The thing that determines how much adrenaline is secreted is determined by your genetic material. The same goes for other chemicals in the body, like serotonin and dopamine, that are responsible for the feelings of love. How much of these chemicals you get and when is impacted by your environment, but it's mostly a genetic thing. Like with adrenaline. If you're skiing down a mountain during an avalanche, the environment puts pressure on your body so the adrenaline is released, but over all, how much and how fast is determined by your body.

DNA itself is a chemical compound, so 'nuff said, life's all chemical :).

Talk how?

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#29 phaze

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 12:38 AM


DNA itself is a chemical compound, so 'nuff said, life's all chemical :).

:backstab:
I didn't kill Izzy the chemicals made me do it :unsure:
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#30 NickFleming

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 12:48 AM

First of all, its not all chemical, I do believe its also electrical impulses. Here's the thing: It IS your choice, but that choice is made through the chemicals/ electical impulses. These chemicals are part of YOU *points.* Its YOU making the decision, YOU loving the person (or ice cream). This simply happens via the electrical impulses/chemicals. Those chemicals are in YOUR body, and are therefore a part of you. Its still a human nature thing, thought processes, you're not forced to do it, its YOU. And I guess that means Phaze killed Izzy....

Edited by NickFleming, 31 August 2010 - 12:48 AM.

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