442 replies to this topic

[EDM]

I don't need all this irrational 'logic' to tell me about God...God exists...the end.

[Quag]

well, after reading the first twenty pages or so, you have probably completely destroyed any faith in God I have. Thanks. but I still have a good reason for believing in God.
http://en.wikipedia..../Pascal's_Wager

Problem with pascals wager is what if you get the wrong god? ie catholic vs jewish vs muslikm (I know all the same god yet all say the others are going to hell) or what if hinduism or buddhism is the right religion? You could actually piss god (s) off more by believing in the wrong religion.

It also all depends on god only caring about whether you believe in him or not. It ignores the possibility (in my opinion certainty) that if god exsts he cares more about whether you were a good person than whether you believe in him.

[gvg]

Yep. That's what I was going to say. All you're doing is telling any god (we're assuming of the all-knowing Abrahamic variety, because 1. any deistic god certainly wouldn't provide a heaven-like environment (at least it hasn't in any description of a deistic being that I've seen) and 2. because it's more widespread) that you're only believing in him for a reward. As Quag says, you're assuming he/she/it cares more about people believing in him.

Pascal's wager, to me, is for people who are too afraid of repercussions to embrace the fact that there is currently no evidence, logically, philosophically, or scientifically, that a god-like being or beings exist. If I go to hell or what not for using my reason to realize this, then so be it. Because any being (again IMO) that prefers for people to ignore this inconvenient truth, going against the very logic and reason that was supposedly given to us by god, and instead to rely on faith, with threat of eternal damnation if we don't, is really not something I'd want to worship anyway.

...I think that made sense. Hopefully =)

[TheCube]

I am tired and don't feel like reading all 43 pages of posts, so I'll just post my opinion on the matter:

God allowed the existence of miracles in the Biblical Times to prove that he existed, right? In fact, one time, a disciple even said that if it is hard to believe in God WITH miracles, then, people in the later times are going to have a whole ton of troubles believing in God. So, basically, it is a big guessing game of the matter to some nonbelievers. But, many people would want someone to believe in and save them after they die, so, most people "seem" to believe in a Holy Spirit. I say seem because there are tons of people who play church and go to it because they want to be seen as a good person and get a good reputation. Anyways, for now, no living person knows if there really is a God, so the debate seems to be pretty much nonexistent because the believe can't have any proof except for faith. So, I say that the arguement is pretty much pointless. However I am a Christian myself, so yes, I do believe in God.

[flamebirde]

Are you guys TRYING to convert me to atheist?

[gvg]

Actually, no. What I seek to do is, for those who want to, explain why the ideas and support for theism is weak and false. I do NOT try to deconvert people, nor do I care if you do. But since you mentioned Pascal's wager, I attacked it.

Those who don't want to discuss it, I don't discuss it with (unlike those door to door Jehovah's witness people. Who I have had the fortune to avoid thus far in my short 16 year lifespan).

[TheCube]

Are you guys TRYING to convert me to atheist?

I didn't mean to. I was just showing my opinion. You have to be open minded about this like when they talk about evolution in science class. Even if you don't believe in it because you believe God created the world, you still have to listen to your teacher, or else you fail on the test.

[flamebirde]

currently I am Scientific Monotheism, the belief that science is tools for God. but at this point, I don't know anymore... I just don't know... but anyway, good discussion!

[gvg]

As Socrates (I think) once said, "The one thing I know is that I know nothing."

[TheCube]

As Socrates (I think) once said, "The one thing I know is that I know nothing."

Good paradox!