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Government for the people. How?


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#1 Izzy

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 01:50 AM

The objective of this thread is to altruistically* design a political structure wherein the needs and interests of EVERY inhabitant of this country are met. (None of this "general public" crap, we should try to make everyone happy. smile.gif ) It's impossible to not be aware of how inconceivable this sounds, but I think by being mindful of what we're trying to accomplish, but.. just might be feasible?**

Now, before we can even begin devising laws, creating our constitution, bill of rights, etc., I think it's best we assemble a list of what people want from their government. Feel free to contribute ANYTHING. (I stole some of these from the world's smallest political quiz and the bill of rights. >_>)

1. Government should not censor speech, press, media, or internet.
2. Military service should be voluntary.
3. There should be no laws regarding sex for consenting adults, where a consenting adult is anyone of 16 years of age or older.
4. Repeal laws prohibiting adult possession and use of drugs.
5. End government barriers to international free trade.
6. Let people control their own retirement; privatize Social Security.
7. Keep government welfare, but no taxation without representation.
8. Freedom of speech, religion, sexuality, peaceful protests, and petition.
9. Soldiers may not be quartered in a house without the consent of the owner.
10. People may not be unreasonably searched or kept in captivity.
11. The right to a free, public, and speedy trial.
12. Laws are to remain the same from State to State.
13. Eventual globalization is a priority.

*We can get into the semantics of altruism later. I have.. mixed feelings, but this most closely elucidates my intentions. (Lol, I swear, I bounce back and forth from being the apathetic hippy civilian who just wants to live to the extremely fervent humanitarian practically daily. >_>)
** Eh, truthfully, it isn't. Too many people disagree on matters of religion, which define the moral code for a LOT of people (even if they don't strictly adhere to it, haha). We need to agree now to define morals for ourselves and not base them off of religious texts. Like, if someone proposes "Don't kill", that's perfectly acceptable, and I expect it to be fully ratified. If someone else suggests "Love God", this is more open to debate. While you can submit ideas that coincide with religious texts, submit them because they are mandates you want and agree with, not just because your scripture of choice tells you to follow them.


Edited by bonanova, 13 February 2014 - 10:49 PM.

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#2 gvg

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 02:44 AM

Are we allowed to disagree with something and possibly change it? Because I think that government social security should be available as a sort of "Default" option, instead of just strictly privatized...

Also, I would get rid of the "Don't ask, Don't tell" thing in the military... Gays should be allowed to freely serve (This may go under no sexual discrimination though...)

I also want increased government regulation, to prevent monopolies and trusts and unfair business practices, as well as laws that prohibit the use of slave labor, or for that matter ANY labor, from people outside of the U.S. that aren't U.S. citizens working in another country (Although legal aliens in the U.S. are allowed jobs)... it sickens me that people are losing their jobs to people in other countries who simply take less money. And slave labor is just evil.

And illegal immigration... I have a solution that may work:

Any immigrants who are illegal MUST serve in the military until they become legal aliens. I for one would NOT remain illegal with that kind of law.

Oh, and no bill like the Arizona Bill... It's stupid.

In case you wanted to know, I voted liberal =)
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#3 Izzy

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 04:22 AM

Yeah. Disagree with anything you want! This is the time for brainstorming.

I think we should eventually globalize, so I'm cool with us having companies in other countries, but I think even then, US minimum wage should be paid.

Also, minors caught with drugs/alcohol should not be criminalized. At most, a "What the hell were you thinking class", if that at all. The drinking age should be lowered to whatever we decide the age of adult is.

Oh, I still want jails. Stealing, killing, rape, and anything else where you do something to someone that harms them should be illegal for the obvious reasons.

Hmm.. I've never really picked a position on hate speech. It does fall under freedom of speech.. but it hurts people.. Thoughts?

Voted Libertarian, btw.

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#4 gvg

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 02:49 PM

Hate speech: You may be right, it does fall under freedom of speech, so, as much as it is evil, no jail time. But that doesn't mean people have to live with it. If you say something bad to your boss, i have no problem with you being fired.

Also, I don't think drug laws should be repealed. Illegal drugs= bad. That's it. Is it really that smart to allow people to choose to kill themselves?

I like your idea about minors being caught with alcohol, but again, if it's drugs, then there should be a punishment. However, the purchase of alcohol is illegal for those under 21 (yes, 21, not 18, even though I consider it adulthood.) The stores who sell it to them should also receive punishment.

Also: NO PATRIOT BILL. People should have a right to privacy unless there is OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE to prove that they should be watched.

I also agree with all laws being the same from state to state.

Education wise: Regents in all states. I live in New York, and the regents is a good way to determine how much a child knows. What I do not like, however, is that some teachers strictly teach only what's on the regents. That's not cool.

I also believe that people should make money based on how much they work, and that the rich should be taxed more than the middle class or poor. (I'm part socialist =)

I don't have time now, but next post I will expand on the above statement.
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#5 unreality

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 04:08 PM

The objective of this thread is to altruistically* design a political structure wherein the needs and interests of EVERY inhabitant of this country are met. (None of this "general public" crap, we should try to make everyone happy. :) ) It's impossible to not be aware of how inconceivable this sounds, but I think by being mindful of what we're trying to accomplish, but.. just might be feasible?**


Not feasible :P We could satisfy everyone except for 1 person who's decided he can only be satisfied if our rules to satisfy him didn't exist :lol:

Now, before we can even begin devising laws, creating our constitution, bill of rights, etc., I think it's best we assemble a list of what people want from their government. Feel free to contribute ANYTHING. (I stole some of these from the world's smallest political quiz and the bill of rights. >_>)

1. Government should not censor speech, press, media, or internet.
2. Military service should be voluntary.
3. There should be no laws regarding sex for consenting adults, where a consenting adult is anyone of 16 years of age or older.
4. Repeal laws prohibiting adult possession and use of drugs.
5. End government barriers to international free trade.
6. Let people control their own retirement; privatize Social Security.
7. Keep government welfare, but no taxation without representation.
8. Freedom of speech, religion, sexuality, peaceful protests, and petition.
9. Soldiers may not be quartered in a house without the consent of the owner.
10. People may not be unreasonably searched or kept in captivity.
11. The right to a free, public, and speedy trial.
12. Laws are to remain the same from State to State.
13. Eventual globalization is a priority.


1. agreed
2. agreed
3. agreed
4. agreed
5. agreed
6. agreed, but as gvg said, have a default gov option
7. agreed
8. agreed
9. agreed (lol is this is an issue?)
10.agreed
11.agreed
12.?? why?
13.?? why?



Also, I would get rid of the "Don't ask, Don't tell" thing in the military... Gays should be allowed to freely serve (This may go under no sexual discrimination though...)


agree 100%.

Hmm.. I've never really picked a position on hate speech. It does fall under freedom of speech.. but it hurts people.. Thoughts?


think of a hierarchy - Freedom to Life & Liberty trumps Freedom of Speech. If you tell someone seriously you're going to hunt them down, rape them and kill them, it should be enough to at least detain you for some kind of questioning haha.


Also, I don't think drug laws should be repealed. Illegal drugs= bad. That's it. Is it really that smart to allow people to choose to kill themselves?

I like your idea about minors being caught with alcohol, but again, if it's drugs, then there should be a punishment. However, the purchase of alcohol is illegal for those under 21 (yes, 21, not 18, even though I consider it adulthood.) The stores who sell it to them should also receive punishment.


really?? Do you not realize that alcohol is a drug too - one of the worst, most harmful of all drugs? You say "illegal drugs = bad" and the key word there is ILLEGAL. It's the illegality of drugs that makes them so bad, so impure in street form, so life-ruining. We have a chance to change what's legal and illegal.

The so-called 'war on drugs' destroys millions of legitimate crops each year, it ends many lives, it creates violent street gangs, it leads to dangerous impurities in substances, there's no accountability, there's people being put in jail for doing nothing wrong.

EDIT - there was a Prohibition of alcohol in the 1920's in the US. It created mobster gangs smuggling and producing illegal impure alcohol, and the murder rate doubled, and everyone drank anyway. The same has happened with the increasing Drug Prohibititon of the past forty years. Gangs, mobs, smuggling, impure production, HIGHLY INCREASED CRIME RATE, and everyone does it anyway.

Sure, some substances are so dangerous that using them can make you addicted on the first try, not just effecting yourself but other people. Heroin, meth, coke, etc. But there are many more drugs that should be legal (cannabis, most entheogens, tryptamines (and other 5-HT hallucinogens) and phenethylamines) as well as nootropics.

We also need to reform the DARE program - it groups all drugs into one "BAD!" category and fails miserably. So when kids try weed and realize it's not so bad (and it's not, cannabis is actually surprisingly healthy & diverse, and even has anti-carcinogenic propereties), they remember how DARE lumped all these drugs together, so then they might try something very dangerous and addictive like methamphetamine (crystal meth).

We need to follow Amsterdam's model, to draw a line between 'soft drugs' and 'hard drugs', because believe it or not, there's a difference.

And don't ever say we need to protect people from themselves - that's not the government's job. And even if it was, why are tobacco and alcohol legal? Two of the biggest killers in the world.

If I had it my way, cigarettes would be highly illegal. But I have no desire really to stop someone from putting anything in the body, cancer sticks or not. So I guess what I mean is that they would be legal, but it would have to be very hard to get them to 12 and 13 year olds who become addicted after a single puff of dried urine, nuclear bomb and nicotine.

Edited by unreality, 08 July 2010 - 04:13 PM.

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#6 Framm 18

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 04:41 PM

Hate speech: You may be right, it does fall under freedom of speech, so, as much as it is evil, no jail time. But that doesn't mean people have to live with it. If you say something bad to your boss, i have no problem with you being fired.

I also believe that people should make money based on how much they work, and that the rich should be taxed more than the middle class or poor. (I'm part socialist =)


What is classified as Hate speech? If it is something like Unreality, then I could possible agree, but I will await your answer on that.

For the Money deal. :rolleyes: Why should the people that make more money and are already paying higher taxes since it is done on a percentage of what you make (someone correct me if I am wrong) be forced to pay even more taxes?
I would have to say that I would like to see a pay scale that is based on the importance of the job that you do. In other words, enterainers don't make more then teachers, nurses, or some of the other jobs out there (can't fully think at the moment).

Also with the work deal, everyone (or at least someone in that immediate family) that is between the ages of 16?-60? that is capable of working must at least attempt to get a job (with proof that they attempted) before any sort of welfare opportunities, and they must continue to look for a job to keep the welfare.
(I hope that made sense)
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Spoiler for Haikus


#7 Izzy

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 07:23 PM

Framm, with the work deal, I think that's a good idea, but don't start it at 16. High school doesn't even end until you're 18, and most people tend to go to uni afterwards. If you have no intentions of going back to school, then you should get a job, but if you're family-less and getting a PhD, you shouldn't be forced to work through it. I think once you've gotten a degree you're satisfied with, you should have at least 2 years to chill, and then get a job, or attempt. ..But, what do we do with people that thought? It doesn't seem right to throw them in jail.

Also, I don't think drug laws should be repealed. Illegal drugs= bad. That's it. Is it really that smart to allow people to choose to kill themselves?

I think unreality summed up everything for me. Just wanted to add one thing, it's their body. If they want to destroy it with something as harmful as alcohol, or something only a tad worse like heroin, they should have the right. However, if they hurt anything, drive, or do anything of a violent nature whilst intoxicated, charges will be pressed, as with alcohol today. With that, suicide should also be legal and the government is not allowed to intervene with your attempt to off yourself. Mandates like the Baker Act, saying a hospital can detain you if they think you're unstable need to be removed. Likewise, no one can tell me how much to eat or not to swim in battery acid (as silly as that sounds).

I think we should call this "Freedom to Body"... But that sounds a bit lame. I'm open to suggestions.

Oh, I don't think people should be allowed to smoke in public. It's disgusting. There should be exceptions (with weed, not tobacco..) in places like concert venues or drug related expos (lmao, I can see it now, designer drug conventions >_>), but that's about it. Just like people aren't allowed to walk around and spray deadly chemicals in the air because it's unhealthy endangerment and possibly manslaughter, people shouldn't be allowed to smoke cigarettes...

Also, if you show up to work or school high/drunk, your boss can fire you and you can get expelled or sent home for the day.

I'll classify hate speech as hurtful words like "You're fat", "Wow, you're such a fag", "Whut up, Nazi?", etc, and don't think they should be criminalized. Now, actual threats like "I'm going to kill you" need to be taken seriously and dealt with the proper precautions.

12. Laws are to remain the same from State to State, to show the unification of our country, and erase any ambiguity. If we say "Okay, anything we didn't tell you was illegal is up to the states", you're going to have mass disorder and chaos. If California allows gay marriage but Texas doesn't, you're going to see an unnecessary spike in California's population (..or possibly Texas'), possibly putting a strain on resources such as housing developments and schools. People should want to live where they live because they like it there, not because of different laws.

13. Eventual globalization is a priority, because as cliche as it sounds, WE ARE ONE PLANET, WE ARE ONE SPECIES, and we really fecking need to start acting like that. During the Haiti crisis, so many [idiots] at my school were complaining that we were raising money to help with food and shelter and stuff because "We have poor and hungry people here". Yes, while that is true, it doesn't mean we can't help out the rest of the world. If we create a political system that.. actually works and everyone is happy with it, it only makes sense to share it. Probably first with Canada, then Mexico, and then slowly expand south. People will have the same rights all across the Americas, and again, people will only move to places they want to live, not to somewhere because it's easier to make money/get away with stuff. It's all about world happiness. Also, wars would pretty much end, unless their civil wars. Say like, two countries (I guess they'll still be called countries for geographical purposes) want to fight. The rest of the world can threaten them with its immense power and break them apart, pretty much saving lives. Then they can diplomatically deal with the problem, rather through force and weaponry.

My thoughts on schooling I already posted in another thread, so here:
Our educational system could definitely do with some amendments. Mandatory attendance for grades K-5, but I think older students deserve some leniency. I'm habitually truant, and have been forging doctor notes since 6th grade. That said, I'm also a straight A student and in the 99th percentile in my class in a ridiculously competitive International Baccalaureate school. Last year, I only went to school 143 days (out of 180, for you non-Americans). I was lost some of the time, and make up work was a b*tch, but I still maintained my class rank, whilst taking seven academics. The significance of this is that mandating students that need to go to school (especially if they don't need to be there) is a waste of resources, effort, and money. I propose we make students show up based on grades. So along as you are able to provide your own accommodations, you only have to show up in classes you have a B or less in. Pretty much junior year on, people have their own cars. So if I have all A's, but I have a B 6th period, I can sleep in 'til 12, hit up that class, and go home. It might make sense that Mondays are mandatory, so teachers can lay out the lesson plan on the board along with test dates, so people know what they're responsible for. (We used to be given exam exemptions prior to the swine flu madness, but then the county found out it's illegal to give students an incentive to go to school :rolleyes: ) People should still be allowed to drop out at 16. ..I don't really feel it's fair to force people to go to school, but I've seen the stupidity of the people that do go, so.. I think it's best. =/

Furthermore, I think all high schools should be held to the IB standard, best it's pretty much going to be the best quality of education you'll get. If we prep kids to think critically and stuff since kindergarten instead of coloring so much, pass rates would be much higher, and the world will slowly glisten with enlightenment. :)

There should be one health care option (the best option, covering everything) for everyone, because everyone is entitled to the same life, and it should be government run and funded through taxes.

Haha this thread is fun. :D

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#8 gvg

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 08:47 PM

Framm18: That was along the lines of what I was going to say about work.

I also agree with the thing about entertainers making less than teachers. It's ridiculous that a basketball player, like Joe Johnson, makes 120 MILLION DOLLARS while some teachers barley make enough to live.

Izzy: I don't really like "Freedom of Body." My belief is that people naturally make stupid decisions. I know that there are things that I have done that were probably, well, stupid. Example: Prior to FDR, when it was laizze-faire out the wazzoo, depression occurs. In comes the New Deal, bam, we're out (well, world war two may have helped =)Another example: If people made good decisions, would there have had to be a progressive era where the country was fixed through government acts and such? But if Right to Decide (My term for it =) will be included, then HIGHLY TAX EVERYTHING THAT WAS ILLEGAL, as well as alcohol and tobacco. Make people not want to do it, and penalize them for actions done under the influence of drugs and alcohol.

I agree with you on the war thing, though, but not the school thing. Once again, if it will be included, it should ONLY apply to high school. In middle school you're still under control from your parents, thus, you are a child. It's mandatory in middle school.

And the health care thing you brought up works too.

And yes, this thread is very fun. :lol: We can finally see what a modern constitution would include.

Oh, and make sure to include an amendment process and an elastic clause.
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#9 unreality

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 09:11 PM

? But if Right to Decide (My term for it =) will be included, then HIGHLY TAX EVERYTHING THAT WAS ILLEGAL, as well as alcohol and tobacco. Make people not want to do it, and penalize them for actions done under the influence of drugs and alcohol.


agreed. I think that's a fair compromise


Oh, and make sure to include an amendment process and an elastic clause.


yep that's importanta


Framm18: That was along the lines of what I was going to say about work.

I also agree with the thing about entertainers making less than teachers. It's ridiculous that a basketball player, like Joe Johnson, makes 120 MILLION DOLLARS while some teachers barley make enough to live.


agreed. But what can you do about that? The only thing we can - or should - do is try to change the social perception of the entertainment business and let the free market readjust

Izzy: I don't really like "Freedom of Body." My belief is that people naturally make stupid decisions. I know that there are things that I have done that were probably, well, stupid.


if I make a stupid decision, I penalize myself internally. I don't want the government stepping in, that makes me lose respect for it. I already have too little respect for authority, haha. My point is that only if you really cross the line and harm others, you should be penalized. As we agreed in the compromise above. But you can do to yourself what you will. And if you want rehab, then check in yourself - it's on you, on your insurance, on your donors/sponsors, whatever. Not on our taxes. Also the MASSIVE AMOUNT of revenue generated by legalizing some drugs would be enormous... marijuana is a huge $$$ potential for the government. It was originally made illegal for money reasons (edit - and racism actually. I can talk for hours on this subject though so don't get me started), but of course that didn't stop anyone and now if the gov/us ends the war on drugs, that will save money, and also generate tax on weed, and all of this can go into the school system to raise teacher salaries and REAL drug/sex education and bingo... better world :)

Prior to FDR, when it was laizze-faire out the wazzoo, depression occurs. In comes the New Deal, bam, we're out (well, world war two may have helped =)Another example: If people made good decisions, would there have had to be a progressive era where the country was fixed through government acts and such


we can argue all the time in hindsight, but i was under an opposite impression about the cause and fix of the great depression haha

Edited by unreality, 08 July 2010 - 09:12 PM.

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#10 gvg

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 09:49 PM

You're probably right about the revenue from marijuana... Again, though, taxes should be involved (We already have a compromise completed; we're on a role =)

Oh, even though this probably doesn't need to be said, slavery is illegal. We have to make sure that it's in there or people will do it because it isn't.

And how do you do the quote thing? I'm not sure how. :blink:

Edited by gvg, 08 July 2010 - 09:49 PM.

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